Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Zenny
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Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

The thing that unites buddhism and hinduism is Meditation as the tool for liberation.
With this in mind,why do YOU think Hindu meditators come up with atman,and modern buddhists with anatman?
A curious state of affairs.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:48 am The thing that unites buddhism and hinduism is Meditation as the tool for liberation.
With this in mind,why do YOU think Hindu meditators come up with atman,and modern buddhists with anatman?
A curious state of affairs.
I think it's simply that people interpret "spiritual" experience in different ways. For example I have some Quaker friends who meditate to get closer to God.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Zenny
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Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:14 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:48 am The thing that unites buddhism and hinduism is Meditation as the tool for liberation.
With this in mind,why do YOU think Hindu meditators come up with atman,and modern buddhists with anatman?
A curious state of affairs.
I think it's simply that people interpret "spiritual" experience in different ways. For example I have some Quaker friends who meditate to get closer to God.
Yes,I agree with this. And if we dig a little deeper,are some interpretations more valid than others?
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:20 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:14 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:48 am The thing that unites buddhism and hinduism is Meditation as the tool for liberation.
With this in mind,why do YOU think Hindu meditators come up with atman,and modern buddhists with anatman?
A curious state of affairs.
I think it's simply that people interpret "spiritual" experience in different ways. For example I have some Quaker friends who meditate to get closer to God.
Yes,I agree with this. And if we dig a little deeper,are some interpretations more valid than others?
People have different beliefs and assumptions about what they experience. For example, the ananda ("bliss") aspect of satcitananda sounds quite jhanic to me.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satcitananda
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:25 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:20 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:14 am

I think it's simply that people interpret "spiritual" experience in different ways. For example I have some Quaker friends who meditate to get closer to God.
Yes,I agree with this. And if we dig a little deeper,are some interpretations more valid than others?
People have different beliefs and assumptions about what they experience. For example, the ananda ("bliss") aspect of satcitananda sounds quite jhanic to me.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satcitananda
Yep. I agree again! So what would you make of a mystic who used his own labels and terms for HIS experiences? And what if his experiences contradicted tradition?
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:29 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:25 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:20 am
Yes,I agree with this. And if we dig a little deeper,are some interpretations more valid than others?
People have different beliefs and assumptions about what they experience. For example, the ananda ("bliss") aspect of satcitananda sounds quite jhanic to me.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satcitananda
Yep. I agree again! So what would you make of a mystic who used his own labels and terms for HIS experiences? And what if his experiences contradicted tradition?
"Spiritual" experiences can be quite difficult to describe. I suppose the advantage of being part of a tradition is the use of shared terminology, on which hopefully people mostly agree.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:48 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:29 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:25 am

People have different beliefs and assumptions about what they experience. For example, the ananda ("bliss") aspect of satcitananda sounds quite jhanic to me.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satcitananda
Yep. I agree again! So what would you make of a mystic who used his own labels and terms for HIS experiences? And what if his experiences contradicted tradition?
"Spiritual" experiences can be quite difficult to describe. I suppose the advantage of being part of a tradition is the use of shared terminology, on which hopefully people mostly agree.
Shared terminology can be useful. But I've found shared beliefs can lead to incorrect interpretations.
What experiences do you think are being interpreted when some say atman and some say anatman?
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
Spiny Norman
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:51 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:48 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:29 am
Yep. I agree again! So what would you make of a mystic who used his own labels and terms for HIS experiences? And what if his experiences contradicted tradition?
"Spiritual" experiences can be quite difficult to describe. I suppose the advantage of being part of a tradition is the use of shared terminology, on which hopefully people mostly agree.
Shared terminology can be useful. But I've found shared beliefs can lead to incorrect interpretations.
What experiences do you think are being interpreted when some say atman and some say anatman?
I think a Hindu would associate jhanic-type experiences with Atman/Brahman. A Buddhist wouldn't make that assumption.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Zenny
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Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:56 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:51 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:48 am

"Spiritual" experiences can be quite difficult to describe. I suppose the advantage of being part of a tradition is the use of shared terminology, on which hopefully people mostly agree.
Shared terminology can be useful. But I've found shared beliefs can lead to incorrect interpretations.
What experiences do you think are being interpreted when some say atman and some say anatman?
I think a Hindu would associate jhanic-type experiences with Atman/Brahman. A Buddhist wouldn't make that assumption.
OK. So what is the experience of anatman? Not the association or interpretation or logic,but the actual experience?
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:48 am The thing that unites buddhism and hinduism is Meditation as the tool for liberation.
With this in mind,why do YOU think Hindu meditators come up with atman,and modern buddhists with anatman?
A curious state of affairs.
Said views arise from a certain types of reasoning, namely inductive reasoning or through synthetic a priori propositions. In contrast an empiricist would just accept the experience without adding any metaphysical interpretation to it. The Buddha was an empiricist, so he didn’t interpret said states as union with a God or anything like that because said God was never actually experienced. Only the meditative state was, which falls away when conditions change.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:09 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:48 am The thing that unites buddhism and hinduism is Meditation as the tool for liberation.
With this in mind,why do YOU think Hindu meditators come up with atman,and modern buddhists with anatman?
A curious state of affairs.
Said views arise from a certain types of reasoning, namely inductive reasoning or through synthetic a priori propositions. In contrast an empiricist would just accept the experience without adding any metaphysical interpretation to it. The Buddha was an empiricist, so he didn’t interpret said states as union with a God or anything like that because said God was never actually experienced. Only the meditative state was, which falls away when conditions change.
Anatman is also a form of metaphysical reasoning.
No such thing as a pure empiricist. The human is not an empty slate.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:14 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:09 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:48 am The thing that unites buddhism and hinduism is Meditation as the tool for liberation.
With this in mind,why do YOU think Hindu meditators come up with atman,and modern buddhists with anatman?
A curious state of affairs.
Said views arise from a certain types of reasoning, namely inductive reasoning or through synthetic a priori propositions. In contrast an empiricist would just accept the experience without adding any metaphysical interpretation to it. The Buddha was an empiricist, so he didn’t interpret said states as union with a God or anything like that because said God was never actually experienced. Only the meditative state was, which falls away when conditions change.
Anatman is also a form of metaphysical reasoning.
No such thing as a pure empiricist. The human is not an empty slate.
Anatta is empiricist. It states that in this direct experience of x no atta is experienced or found. Not-self, and so empty.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:16 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:14 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:09 pm

Said views arise from a certain types of reasoning, namely inductive reasoning or through synthetic a priori propositions. In contrast an empiricist would just accept the experience without adding any metaphysical interpretation to it. The Buddha was an empiricist, so he didn’t interpret said states as union with a God or anything like that because said God was never actually experienced. Only the meditative state was, which falls away when conditions change.
Anatman is also a form of metaphysical reasoning.
No such thing as a pure empiricist. The human is not an empty slate.
Anatta is empiricist. It states that in this direct experience of x no atta can be experienced or found. Not-self, and so empty.
Lol! So your telling me what my experience is?
What are you,a priest!?
This is your linguistic interpretation/confusion/dialectic
Zero empiricism or personal experience in your statement.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:20 pm
Lol! So your telling me what my experience is?
What are you,a priest!?
This is your linguistic interpretation/confusion/dialectic
Zero empiricism or personal experience in your statement.
No. If you have directly experienced an atta then could you tell us what it is? How did you experience it? Where is it?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:21 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:20 pm
Lol! So your telling me what my experience is?
What are you,a priest!?
This is your linguistic interpretation/confusion/dialectic
Zero empiricism or personal experience in your statement.
No. If you have directly experienced an atta then could you tell us what it is? How did you experience it? Where is it?
I am an atta. Every feeling is my atta. Its here,wherever I am. I experienced it with feelings which are mine. An atta is an individual nexus of feelings and will. I've experienced nothing else all my life. How's that for empirical?!
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
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