The thing that unites buddhism and hinduism is Meditation as the tool for liberation.
With this in mind,why do YOU think Hindu meditators come up with atman,and modern buddhists with anatman?
A curious state of affairs.
Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.
Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.
I think it's simply that people interpret "spiritual" experience in different ways. For example I have some Quaker friends who meditate to get closer to God.
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.
Yes,I agree with this. And if we dig a little deeper,are some interpretations more valid than others?Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:14 amI think it's simply that people interpret "spiritual" experience in different ways. For example I have some Quaker friends who meditate to get closer to God.
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.
People have different beliefs and assumptions about what they experience. For example, the ananda ("bliss") aspect of satcitananda sounds quite jhanic to me.Zenny wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:20 amYes,I agree with this. And if we dig a little deeper,are some interpretations more valid than others?Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:14 amI think it's simply that people interpret "spiritual" experience in different ways. For example I have some Quaker friends who meditate to get closer to God.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satcitananda
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.
Yep. I agree again! So what would you make of a mystic who used his own labels and terms for HIS experiences? And what if his experiences contradicted tradition?Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:25 amPeople have different beliefs and assumptions about what they experience. For example, the ananda ("bliss") aspect of satcitananda sounds quite jhanic to me.Zenny wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:20 amYes,I agree with this. And if we dig a little deeper,are some interpretations more valid than others?Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:14 am
I think it's simply that people interpret "spiritual" experience in different ways. For example I have some Quaker friends who meditate to get closer to God.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satcitananda
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.
"Spiritual" experiences can be quite difficult to describe. I suppose the advantage of being part of a tradition is the use of shared terminology, on which hopefully people mostly agree.Zenny wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:29 amYep. I agree again! So what would you make of a mystic who used his own labels and terms for HIS experiences? And what if his experiences contradicted tradition?Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:25 amPeople have different beliefs and assumptions about what they experience. For example, the ananda ("bliss") aspect of satcitananda sounds quite jhanic to me.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satcitananda
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.
Shared terminology can be useful. But I've found shared beliefs can lead to incorrect interpretations.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:48 am"Spiritual" experiences can be quite difficult to describe. I suppose the advantage of being part of a tradition is the use of shared terminology, on which hopefully people mostly agree.Zenny wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:29 amYep. I agree again! So what would you make of a mystic who used his own labels and terms for HIS experiences? And what if his experiences contradicted tradition?Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:25 am
People have different beliefs and assumptions about what they experience. For example, the ananda ("bliss") aspect of satcitananda sounds quite jhanic to me.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satcitananda
What experiences do you think are being interpreted when some say atman and some say anatman?
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.
I think a Hindu would associate jhanic-type experiences with Atman/Brahman. A Buddhist wouldn't make that assumption.Zenny wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:51 amShared terminology can be useful. But I've found shared beliefs can lead to incorrect interpretations.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:48 am"Spiritual" experiences can be quite difficult to describe. I suppose the advantage of being part of a tradition is the use of shared terminology, on which hopefully people mostly agree.
What experiences do you think are being interpreted when some say atman and some say anatman?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.
OK. So what is the experience of anatman? Not the association or interpretation or logic,but the actual experience?Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:56 amI think a Hindu would associate jhanic-type experiences with Atman/Brahman. A Buddhist wouldn't make that assumption.Zenny wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:51 amShared terminology can be useful. But I've found shared beliefs can lead to incorrect interpretations.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:48 am
"Spiritual" experiences can be quite difficult to describe. I suppose the advantage of being part of a tradition is the use of shared terminology, on which hopefully people mostly agree.
What experiences do you think are being interpreted when some say atman and some say anatman?
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.
Said views arise from a certain types of reasoning, namely inductive reasoning or through synthetic a priori propositions. In contrast an empiricist would just accept the experience without adding any metaphysical interpretation to it. The Buddha was an empiricist, so he didn’t interpret said states as union with a God or anything like that because said God was never actually experienced. Only the meditative state was, which falls away when conditions change.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.
Anatman is also a form of metaphysical reasoning.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:09 pmSaid views arise from a certain types of reasoning, namely inductive reasoning or through synthetic a priori propositions. In contrast an empiricist would just accept the experience without adding any metaphysical interpretation to it. The Buddha was an empiricist, so he didn’t interpret said states as union with a God or anything like that because said God was never actually experienced. Only the meditative state was, which falls away when conditions change.
No such thing as a pure empiricist. The human is not an empty slate.
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.
Anatta is empiricist. It states that in this direct experience of x no atta is experienced or found. Not-self, and so empty.Zenny wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:14 pmAnatman is also a form of metaphysical reasoning.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:09 pmSaid views arise from a certain types of reasoning, namely inductive reasoning or through synthetic a priori propositions. In contrast an empiricist would just accept the experience without adding any metaphysical interpretation to it. The Buddha was an empiricist, so he didn’t interpret said states as union with a God or anything like that because said God was never actually experienced. Only the meditative state was, which falls away when conditions change.
No such thing as a pure empiricist. The human is not an empty slate.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.
Lol! So your telling me what my experience is?Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:16 pmAnatta is empiricist. It states that in this direct experience of x no atta can be experienced or found. Not-self, and so empty.Zenny wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:14 pmAnatman is also a form of metaphysical reasoning.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:09 pm
Said views arise from a certain types of reasoning, namely inductive reasoning or through synthetic a priori propositions. In contrast an empiricist would just accept the experience without adding any metaphysical interpretation to it. The Buddha was an empiricist, so he didn’t interpret said states as union with a God or anything like that because said God was never actually experienced. Only the meditative state was, which falls away when conditions change.
No such thing as a pure empiricist. The human is not an empty slate.
What are you,a priest!?
This is your linguistic interpretation/confusion/dialectic
Zero empiricism or personal experience in your statement.
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.
No. If you have directly experienced an atta then could you tell us what it is? How did you experience it? Where is it?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.
I am an atta. Every feeling is my atta. Its here,wherever I am. I experienced it with feelings which are mine. An atta is an individual nexus of feelings and will. I've experienced nothing else all my life. How's that for empirical?!
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