Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:09 pm
Zenny wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:59 pm But do you have free will in this process?
one would run from a tiger


which is the threat of hell or suffering
OK. So the one running has freewill.
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

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Zenny wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:14 pm So the one running has freewill.
the danger is real, the running is sincere
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

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cappuccino wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:19 pm
Zenny wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:14 pm So the one running has freewill.
the danger is real, the running is sincere
OK. So that's freewill. I'm not sure why the reluctance to admit the obvious.
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

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Zenny wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:21 pm So that's freewill. I'm not sure why the reluctance to admit the obvious.
free will is someone choosing to be eaten


rather than someone forced to run
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

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cappuccino wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:44 pm
Zenny wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:21 pm So that's freewill. I'm not sure why the reluctance to admit the obvious.
free will is someone choosing to be eaten


rather than someone forced to run
I doubt many humans chose to be eaten.
But one can chose to run or stand one's ground and fight.
Regardless,all of these are acts of will.
Free means not from any outside force,meaning you are the originator of your actions.
Some actions you don't choose between alternatives but act with increased intensity.
Actions are agency. Is will. No getting away from this.
Those who deny free will deny all responsibility,morality and human action. They deny any spiritual path and even deny the desire to become "enlightened".
Life is will.
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

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:candle:
Last edited by cappuccino on Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

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Zenny wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:59 pm
dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:45 pm
Zenny wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:44 am

So do you have the will to follow or not follow buddhism or is it an auto process?
You are forgetting that all of us need to start as unenlightened, in which the sense of self exists. Our desire and effort toward liberation is the craving which is a mean to cross all cravings, conceit which is a mean to cross conceit. Through exerting sense-restraint and not acting out of greed, aversion and delusion, the nature of self that is dependently originated can be understood. One learns to see that the sense of self is secondary to the five aggregates and the assumption that the self is the master controller is debunked
Yes. But do you have free will in this process?
The only free will one has in the process is the choice of whether to act out or not act out of feeling that pressures us and this is very much a personal responsibility. Pleasant feeling pressures us to chase after it, unpleasant feeling pressures us to chase it away and neutral feeling pressures us to ignore it. For as long as one delights in pleasure then one would habitually act out of feeling and fail to see its nature.

Sense restraint starts with not acting (a choice) out of greed, aversion and delusion given the enduring feeling in bodily action and speech. This form of practice is also called 'patience endurance' which the Buddha praised as the most difficult and the only austerity he approved of. By doing so one allows oneself the space to understand the nature of action, restraints oneself to not act out of the three unwholesome root with regard to feeling in the context of verbal intention, so on and so forth. Sense restraint is not the Dhamma but there is no Dhamma without sense restraint hence why sīla, samādhi, paññā.

One progresses along the path to enlightenment by first keeping the precept not through doing them but through not breaking them, and then understanding how things work (sensuality, feeling, perception, sense organs, impermanence, lack of control, not-self). Enlightenment is described by the Buddha as 'freedom from action' because the arahant has removed the necessary bases to 'act out'.

As an important note, we shall learn to think not abstractly (too theoretically) but rather to think concretely, starting with our own experiences and then understanding the nature of things that underlie them.
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:14 am
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:06 am I doubt many humans chose to be eaten.
every atheist has chosen to not run away from hell


because they see no danger, feel fine
Depends on the particular atheist,and what he means by atheism.

And hell is not something you have to run from.

Many claim and could say buddhism is not theistic or atheistic.

And the point still stands. Every person wills and determines their own path and actions. Otherwise Karma makes no sense,nor morality nor spiritual practices.
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

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dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:35 am
Zenny wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:59 pm
dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:45 pm

You are forgetting that all of us need to start as unenlightened, in which the sense of self exists. Our desire and effort toward liberation is the craving which is a mean to cross all cravings, conceit which is a mean to cross conceit. Through exerting sense-restraint and not acting out of greed, aversion and delusion, the nature of self that is dependently originated can be understood. One learns to see that the sense of self is secondary to the five aggregates and the assumption that the self is the master controller is debunked
Yes. But do you have free will in this process?
The only free will one has in the process is the choice of whether to act out or not act out of feeling that pressures us and this is very much a personal responsibility. Pleasant feeling pressures us to chase after it, unpleasant feeling pressures us to chase it away and neutral feeling pressures us to ignore it. For as long as one delights in pleasure then one would habitually act out of feeling and fail to see its nature.

Sense restraint starts with not acting (a choice) out of greed, aversion and delusion given the enduring feeling in bodily action and speech. This form of practice is also called 'patience endurance' which the Buddha praised as the most difficult and the only austerity he approved of. By doing so one allows oneself the space to understand the nature of action, restraints oneself to not act out of the three unwholesome root with regard to feeling in the context of verbal intention, so on and so forth. Sense restraint is not the Dhamma but there is no Dhamma without sense restraint hence why sīla, samādhi, paññā.

One progresses along the path to enlightenment by first keeping the precept not through doing them but through not breaking them, and then understanding how things work (sensuality, feeling, perception, sense organs, impermanence, lack of control, not-self). Enlightenment is described by the Buddha as 'freedom from action' because the arahant has removed the necessary bases to 'act out'.

As an important note, we shall learn to think not abstractly (too theoretically) but rather to think concretely, starting with our own experiences and then understanding the nature of things that underlie them.

OK. So we have freewill. We agree on that.
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by dicsoncandra »

Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:38 am
dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:35 am
Zenny wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:59 pm
Yes. But do you have free will in this process?
The only free will one has in the process is the choice of whether to act out or not act out of feeling that pressures us and this is very much a personal responsibility. Pleasant feeling pressures us to chase after it, unpleasant feeling pressures us to chase it away and neutral feeling pressures us to ignore it. For as long as one delights in pleasure then one would habitually act out of feeling and fail to see its nature.

Sense restraint starts with not acting (a choice) out of greed, aversion and delusion given the enduring feeling in bodily action and speech. This form of practice is also called 'patience endurance' which the Buddha praised as the most difficult and the only austerity he approved of. By doing so one allows oneself the space to understand the nature of action, restraints oneself to not act out of the three unwholesome root with regard to feeling in the context of verbal intention, so on and so forth. Sense restraint is not the Dhamma but there is no Dhamma without sense restraint hence why sīla, samādhi, paññā.

One progresses along the path to enlightenment by first keeping the precept not through doing them but through not breaking them, and then understanding how things work (sensuality, feeling, perception, sense organs, impermanence, lack of control, not-self). Enlightenment is described by the Buddha as 'freedom from action' because the arahant has removed the necessary bases to 'act out'.

As an important note, we shall learn to think not abstractly (too theoretically) but rather to think concretely, starting with our own experiences and then understanding the nature of things that underlie them.

OK. So we have freewill. We agree on that.
Ok, sure. Start seeing that it isn't really a choice but always a responsibility. That's not where the problem is. What do you get out of this? Where is your intention rooted in? Is your Dhamma abstract or practical? The path of practice is one of contemplation and undoing the gratuitous assumptions that we have over things

edit: we can acknowledge that we have freedom of action, which you may call 'free will'. but what are the necessary bases (conditions) for that? if parts of the brain is removed can we say for certain and exert the assumption that we still have it? Will we have less of it? None of it? The practice of Dhamma is about understanding the nature of things, the bigger perspective of things
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:03 am
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:38 am
dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:35 am

The only free will one has in the process is the choice of whether to act out or not act out of feeling that pressures us and this is very much a personal responsibility. Pleasant feeling pressures us to chase after it, unpleasant feeling pressures us to chase it away and neutral feeling pressures us to ignore it. For as long as one delights in pleasure then one would habitually act out of feeling and fail to see its nature.

Sense restraint starts with not acting (a choice) out of greed, aversion and delusion given the enduring feeling in bodily action and speech. This form of practice is also called 'patience endurance' which the Buddha praised as the most difficult and the only austerity he approved of. By doing so one allows oneself the space to understand the nature of action, restraints oneself to not act out of the three unwholesome root with regard to feeling in the context of verbal intention, so on and so forth. Sense restraint is not the Dhamma but there is no Dhamma without sense restraint hence why sīla, samādhi, paññā.

One progresses along the path to enlightenment by first keeping the precept not through doing them but through not breaking them, and then understanding how things work (sensuality, feeling, perception, sense organs, impermanence, lack of control, not-self). Enlightenment is described by the Buddha as 'freedom from action' because the arahant has removed the necessary bases to 'act out'.

As an important note, we shall learn to think not abstractly (too theoretically) but rather to think concretely, starting with our own experiences and then understanding the nature of things that underlie them.

OK. So we have freewill. We agree on that.
Ok, sure. Start seeing that it isn't really a choice but always a responsibility. That's not where the problem is. What do you get out of this? Where is your intention rooted in? Is your Dhamma abstract or practical? The path of practice is one of contemplation and undoing the gratuitous assumptions that we have over things

edit: we can acknowledge that we have freedom of action, which you may call 'free will'. but what are the necessary bases (conditions) for that? if parts of the brain is removed can we say for certain and exert the assumption that we still have it? Will we have less of it? None of it? The practice of Dhamma is about understanding the nature of things, the bigger perspective of things

A lot of intellectual people seem to have an assumption that freewill or responsibility somehow has a basis in conditions,the "brain" or matter. This is a way of avoiding responsibility.
Our will,ourself,our intentions are rock bottom,where the buck stops,otherwise your really claiming your not responsible for your actions.
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by dicsoncandra »

Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:57 am
dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:03 am
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:38 am

OK. So we have freewill. We agree on that.
Ok, sure. Start seeing that it isn't really a choice but always a responsibility. That's not where the problem is. What do you get out of this? Where is your intention rooted in? Is your Dhamma abstract or practical? The path of practice is one of contemplation and undoing the gratuitous assumptions that we have over things

edit: we can acknowledge that we have freedom of action, which you may call 'free will'. but what are the necessary bases (conditions) for that? if parts of the brain is removed can we say for certain and exert the assumption that we still have it? Will we have less of it? None of it? The practice of Dhamma is about understanding the nature of things, the bigger perspective of things

A lot of intellectual people seem to have an assumption that freewill or responsibility somehow has a basis in conditions,the "brain" or matter. This is a way of avoiding responsibility.
Our will,ourself,our intentions are rock bottom,where the buck stops,otherwise your really claiming your not responsible for your actions.
These intellectual people that you describe believe that consciousness is produced by the brain, assuming that the material takes precedence. On the other hand, you are conflating the nature of personal responsibility with the idea of a primordial self (or 'will'), and proceeded to make an assumption on the other extreme. Either view makes truth claim without any ground on empirical evidence. What can be seen and acknowledged in the experience, though, is the interdependency between body and mind.
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:36 am
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:57 am
dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:03 am

Ok, sure. Start seeing that it isn't really a choice but always a responsibility. That's not where the problem is. What do you get out of this? Where is your intention rooted in? Is your Dhamma abstract or practical? The path of practice is one of contemplation and undoing the gratuitous assumptions that we have over things

edit: we can acknowledge that we have freedom of action, which you may call 'free will'. but what are the necessary bases (conditions) for that? if parts of the brain is removed can we say for certain and exert the assumption that we still have it? Will we have less of it? None of it? The practice of Dhamma is about understanding the nature of things, the bigger perspective of things

A lot of intellectual people seem to have an assumption that freewill or responsibility somehow has a basis in conditions,the "brain" or matter. This is a way of avoiding responsibility.
Our will,ourself,our intentions are rock bottom,where the buck stops,otherwise your really claiming your not responsible for your actions.
These intellectual people that you describe believe that consciousness is produced by the brain, assuming that the material takes precedence. On the other hand, you are conflating the nature of personal responsibility with the idea of a primordial self (or 'will'), and proceeded to make an assumption on the other extreme. Either view makes truth claim without any ground on empirical evidence. What can be seen and acknowledged in the experience, though, is the interdependency between body and mind.
You've made a strawman for your purposes.
It's not an assumption to know I have personal responsibility which is my will,my intentions. Of course my will interacts with my material body,who said otherwise?
Your claim of claim of not having a self is against empirical experience,and is basically a default type of materialism.
Do you think your will is made of matter?
Does this will belong to you?
Is this will what makes you responsible for your actions?
If so,which is the case,your will IS primordial.
Otherwise how do you take responsibility if you are not in charge of your intentions?
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by dicsoncandra »

Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:57 amYou've made a strawman for your purposes.
What strawman?
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:57 amIt's not an assumption to know I have personal responsibility which is my will,my intentions. Of course my will interacts with my material body,who said otherwise?
'My will interacts with my material body' is true to the extent the body is functional and within control. But is it really within the control of the will? Is that the nature of the body and mind? Why would the will not prevent the body from ageing or sickness then? or the body prevent the mind or will from malfunction? From a non-dogmatist standpoint the only statement that can be verified is 'the body paired with mind (or consciousness)'
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:57 amYour claim of claim of not having a self is against empirical experience,and is basically a default type of materialism.
Since when do I claim to not have a self? What materialism when I clearly denied it? Who's making the strawman for what purposes now?
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:57 amDo you think your will is made of matter?
??? No? What are you even getting at lol. Does empirical evidence need to be material? Whose definition is that?
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:57 amDoes this will belong to you?
With the presence of assumption, it is. Amidst plenty evidences (i.e., experiences) that go against it.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:57 amIs this will what makes you responsible for your actions?
It is and that's not where the issue is.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:57 amIf so,which is the case,your will IS primordial.
This is where the false conclusion is at, an assumption.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:57 amOtherwise how do you take responsibility if you are not in charge of your intentions?
Need the 'will' be primordial for one to be responsible? Are you even clear what being responsible means? I hope you don't plan to adopt a child anytime soon lol.

'Assumption' in the most general sense is not a matter of choice, it comes with existence and is a situation that we find ourselves in. Our responsibility is then - with our self, with our will, with our conceit, with craving - to question the very assumption that comes with existence in the face of experiences that contradict itself time and again. What does 'assumption' mean? Taking things for granted, jumping to conclusions... And how is this 'assumption' maintained? Ignorance. The active act to ignore the uncomfortable reality in the face of experiences that contradict itself - it becomes a vicious cycle. And what is this symptom of 'assumption' that is felt, as opposed to seeing things clearly by their nature? Suffering. Suffering is the symptom of contradiction due to ignorance of the nature of things (impermanence, not truly within control, not-self). To even have the slightest chance to get in the direction to understand suffering and the nature of things that is ignored, one has to first stop acting out of lust, aversion, anger, ill will, so on and so forth (the unwholesome basically).

Having the context that this person I am conversing with hasn't had the best intention (putting words in my mouth would be one), it is pretty clear to me that one insists on maintaining ignorance and thus I am aware that there could not be any fruitful result out of this conversation as it is. On top of that, I do not expect this other person to respond with maturity either

:anjali:
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:32 pm
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:57 amYou've made a strawman for your purposes.
What strawman?
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:57 amIt's not an assumption to know I have personal responsibility which is my will,my intentions. Of course my will interacts with my material body,who said otherwise?
'My will interacts with my material body' is true to the extent the body is functional and within control. But is it really within the control of the will? Is that the nature of the body and mind? Why would the will not prevent the body from ageing or sickness then? or the body prevent the mind or will from malfunction? From a non-dogmatist standpoint the only statement that can be verified is 'the body paired with mind (or consciousness)'
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:57 amYour claim of claim of not having a self is against empirical experience,and is basically a default type of materialism.
Since when do I claim to not have a self? What materialism when I clearly denied it? Who's making the strawman for what purposes?
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:57 amDo you think your will is made of matter?
??? No? What are you even getting at lol. Does empirical evidence need to be material? Whose definition is that?
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:57 amDoes this will belong to you?
With the presence of assumption, it is. Amidst plenty evidences (i.e., experiences) that goes against it.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:57 amIs this will what makes you responsible for your actions?
It is and that's not where the issue is.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:57 amIf so,which is the case,your will IS primordial.
This is where the false conclusion is at, an assumption.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:57 amOtherwise how do you take responsibility if you are not in charge of your intentions?
Need the 'will' be primordial for one to be responsible? Are you even clear what being responsible means? I hope you don't plan to adopt a child anytime soon lol.

'Assumption' in the most general sense is not a matter of choice, it comes with existence and is a situation that we find ourselves in. Our responsibility is then - with our self, with our will, with our conceit, with craving - to question the very assumption that comes with existence in the face of experiences that contradict itself time and again. What does 'assumption' mean? Taking things for granted, jumping to conclusions... And how is this 'assumption' maintained? Ignorance. The active act to ignore the uncomfortable reality in the face of experiences that contradict itself - it becomes a vicious cycle. And what is this symptom of 'assumption' that is felt, as opposed to seeing things clearly by their nature? Suffering. Suffering is the symptom of contradiction due to ignorance of the nature of things (impermanence, not truly within control, not-self). To even have the slightest chance to get in the direction to understand suffering and the nature of things that is ignored, one has to first stop acting out of lust, aversion, anger, ill will, so on and so forth (the unwholesome basically).

Having the context that this person I am conversing with hasn't had the best intention (putting words in my mouth would be one), it is pretty clear to me that one insists on maintaining ignorance and thus I am aware that there could not be any fruitful result out of this conversation as it is. On top of that, I do not expect this other person to respond with maturity either

:anjali:
I will boil it down for you.
Your "experience" and Buddhist ideology has no bearing or empirical truck with my experience,at all.
All this talk of ignorance,suffering,assumptions is just your opinion,which you are taking to be some absolute universal truth.
It isn't.
You make a lot of assumptions about emotions,which shows to me you don't understand emotions.
From a realistic standpoint your view on the power of the will just seems like excuses for responsibility.
You have added quite a bit of ad hom above as well.
Could it be that a person who experiences a lot of negativity in life constructs a narrative which justifies him being a small will in need of great changes and oceans of help from others?
I feel I want to take responsibility for all my behaviour,and this comes from a strong passionate will.
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