Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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dicsoncandra
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by dicsoncandra »

Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm I will boil it down for you.
Your "experience" and Buddhist ideology has no bearing or empirical truck with my experience,at all.
Okay?
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm All this talk of ignorance,suffering,assumptions is just your opinion,which you are taking to be some absolute universal truth.
It isn't.
Sure.. it's a personal one then. Pretty ironic coming from someone who asserted on subjective truth lol
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm You make a lot of assumptions about emotions,which shows to me you don't understand emotions.
What assumptions? I have got nothing to prove to you.. I base my understanding on my own clarity towards experience and equanimity in the face of adversity. The Buddha only points the way, I myself must walk the path.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm From a realistic standpoint your view on the power of the will just seems like excuses for responsibility.
This is indeed a projection and thus a wrong assumption.. I need not repeat myself but I clearly stated that one is always responsible regardless of the circumstances. Whether one is weak or strong-willed, one is always responsible. One needs not live in make-believe that one has the strongest and most independent 'will' to take up responsibility because responsibility is always implied. If one needs to make oneself believe in something in order to be, then one really isn't that one believes to be.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm You have added quite a bit of ad hom above as well.
Oh you're playing the victim now? How convenient
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm Could it be that a person who experiences a lot of negativity in life constructs a narrative which justifies him being a small will in need of great changes and oceans of help from others?
The one playing victim?
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm I feel I want to take responsibility for all my behaviour,and this comes from a strong passionate will.
Stop wanting, start doing. Just my two cents :)
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
Zenny
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Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:55 pm
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm I will boil it down for you.
Your "experience" and Buddhist ideology has no bearing or empirical truck with my experience,at all.
Okay?
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm All this talk of ignorance,suffering,assumptions is just your opinion,which you are taking to be some absolute universal truth.
It isn't.
Sure.. it's a personal one then. Pretty ironic coming from someone who asserted on subjective truth lol
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm You make a lot of assumptions about emotions,which shows to me you don't understand emotions.
What assumptions? I have got nothing to prove to you.. I base my understanding on my own clarity towards experience and equanimity in the face of adversity. The Buddha only points the way, I myself must walk the path.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm From a realistic standpoint your view on the power of the will just seems like excuses for responsibility.
This is indeed a projection and thus a wrong assumption.. I need not repeat myself but I clearly stated that one is always responsible regardless of the circumstances. Whether one is weak or strong-willed, one is always responsible. One needs not live in make-believe that one has the strongest and most independent 'will' to take up responsibility because responsibility is always implied. If one needs to make oneself believe in something in order to be, then one really isn't that one believes to be.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm You have added quite a bit of ad hom above as well.
Oh you're playing the victim now? How convenient
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm Could it be that a person who experiences a lot of negativity in life constructs a narrative which justifies him being a small will in need of great changes and oceans of help from others?
The one playing victim?
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm I feel I want to take responsibility for all my behaviour,and this comes from a strong passionate will.
Stop wanting, start doing it. Just my two cents :)
Once again a lot of assumptions.
And lots of misreading of my post.
Let me clarify something to you. I will boil it down even further.
Wanting and doing are one for me.
We don't all need an outside ideology to support us.
Your detailed ideology is not in anyway universal,nor will it ever be.
The proof of the pudding is how you deal with freespeech.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
jons
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by jons »

Zenny wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:55 pm
jons wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:27 pm
Zenny wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:44 am

So do you have the will to follow or not follow buddhism or is it an auto process?
The Buddha did not say anything about -----ism or what other people interpretation of the teachings. The Buddha teachings is about suffering and ends of suffering. No one is suffering my pain or relieving my pain. It is about my pain. It is about learning what the Buddha taught and realized for myself to realize the end of pain.

Svākkhāto Bhagavatā Dhammo
sandiṭṭhiko akāliko
ehipassiko opanayiko
paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhī’ti.

Well expounded is the Dhamma by the Exalted One, directly visible, timeless, calling one to come and see, leading onwards, to be personally realized by the wise.

My opinion
Jons

OK. But do you have the will to follow the teachings about suffering or not?
Yes, I have the will to follow the teachings.

Understanding the process is the utmost important. I would use all the tools in the factors of awakening for the task to understand the process:
Mindfulness (sati)
Investigation (vicaya)
Energy (viriya)
Bliss (piti)
Tranquility (passaddhi)
Concentration (samadhi)
Equanimity (upekkha)
I am learning and developing the factors of awakening to investigate and dissect the Nivaranas to understand the three bondages (Lobha: Greed, Dosa: Hatred, and Moha: Delusion) that tied all of us to this Auto Process (Anatta). I slowly untie the three bondages one small bit at a time. Furthermore, I may not see the end very soon; however, it is the work in progress.

The Buddha prescribed the practice in Mahasatipathana Sutta.

My opinion
Jons
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dicsoncandra
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by dicsoncandra »

dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:55 pm
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm I will boil it down for you.
Your "experience" and Buddhist ideology has no bearing or empirical truck with my experience,at all.
Okay?
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm All this talk of ignorance,suffering,assumptions is just your opinion,which you are taking to be some absolute universal truth.
It isn't.
Sure.. it's a personal one then. Pretty ironic coming from someone who asserted on subjective truth lol
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm You make a lot of assumptions about emotions,which shows to me you don't understand emotions.
What assumptions? I have got nothing to prove to you.. I base my understanding on my own clarity towards experience and equanimity in the face of adversity. The Buddha only points the way, I myself must walk the path.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm From a realistic standpoint your view on the power of the will just seems like excuses for responsibility.
This is indeed a projection and thus a wrong assumption.. I need not repeat myself but I clearly stated that one is always responsible regardless of the circumstances. Whether one is weak or strong-willed, one is always responsible. One needs not live in make-believe that one has the strongest and most independent 'will' to take up responsibility because responsibility is always implied. If one needs to make oneself believe in something in order to be, then one really isn't that one believes to be.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm You have added quite a bit of ad hom above as well.
Oh you're playing the victim now? How convenient
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm Could it be that a person who experiences a lot of negativity in life constructs a narrative which justifies him being a small will in need of great changes and oceans of help from others?
The one playing victim?
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm I feel I want to take responsibility for all my behaviour,and this comes from a strong passionate will.
Stop wanting, start doing it. Just my two cents :)
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm Once again a lot of assumptions.
Say what you want, you haven't provided any ground for evidence for the claims you made let alone have the credibility to talk about assumptions.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pmAnd lots of misreading of my post.
The irony coming from someone who misreads anyone else's post every other time. I don't have that track record, you do.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pmLet me clarify something to you. I will boil it down even further.
Clarify your own mind first and purify it from greed, aversion, delusion. As cappuccino and many others pointed out, you delight in putting others down, which in your own words you claimed to 'take pride' in doing what you do in this forum. Your bearing of the truth is solely based on what makes you feel good and that is a certain way to keep perpetuating your ignorance.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pmWanting and doing are one for me.
You're only embarrassing yourself at this point
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pmWe don't all need an outside ideology to support us.
Never argued for it. And so?
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pmYour detailed ideology is not in anyway universal,nor will it ever be.
If describing my experiences where I had clarity of mind void of greed, aversion and delusion is what you call an 'ideology', then it is rather encouraging to know that another approves of the practice :candle: . Not that it's necessary when the experience of non-greed, non-aversion and non-delusion is understood but thank you anyway :heart:
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pmThe proof of the pudding is how you deal with freespeech.
By rational thought substantiated with justifications and without the attitude of pride amidst the prospect of "winning" an argument. On the flip end, to be downright honest and mindful of one's own motivation and to reflect on whether there is presence of greed, aversion or delusion with the experience. Pride and ill will are rooted in the unwholesome fyi
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

jons wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:46 am
Zenny wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:55 pm
jons wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:27 pm

The Buddha did not say anything about -----ism or what other people interpretation of the teachings. The Buddha teachings is about suffering and ends of suffering. No one is suffering my pain or relieving my pain. It is about my pain. It is about learning what the Buddha taught and realized for myself to realize the end of pain.

Svākkhāto Bhagavatā Dhammo
sandiṭṭhiko akāliko
ehipassiko opanayiko
paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhī’ti.

Well expounded is the Dhamma by the Exalted One, directly visible, timeless, calling one to come and see, leading onwards, to be personally realized by the wise.

My opinion
Jons

OK. But do you have the will to follow the teachings about suffering or not?
Yes, I have the will to follow the teachings.

Understanding the process is the utmost important. I would use all the tools in the factors of awakening for the task to understand the process:
Mindfulness (sati)
Investigation (vicaya)
Energy (viriya)
Bliss (piti)
Tranquility (passaddhi)
Concentration (samadhi)
Equanimity (upekkha)
I am learning and developing the factors of awakening to investigate and dissect the Nivaranas to understand the three bondages (Lobha: Greed, Dosa: Hatred, and Moha: Delusion) that tied all of us to this Auto Process (Anatta). I slowly untie the three bondages one small bit at a time. Furthermore, I may not see the end very soon; however, it is the work in progress.

The Buddha prescribed the practice in Mahasatipathana Sutta.

My opinion
Jons
Well,we agree that our will is what we are responsible for.
We are the ones who direct our will.
Self development as you describe is obviously very good.
But your awfully tied to an ideology,and that's an unecessary attachment on your path.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

dicsoncandra wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:34 am
dicsoncandra wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:55 pm
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm I will boil it down for you.
Your "experience" and Buddhist ideology has no bearing or empirical truck with my experience,at all.
Okay?
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm All this talk of ignorance,suffering,assumptions is just your opinion,which you are taking to be some absolute universal truth.
It isn't.
Sure.. it's a personal one then. Pretty ironic coming from someone who asserted on subjective truth lol
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm You make a lot of assumptions about emotions,which shows to me you don't understand emotions.
What assumptions? I have got nothing to prove to you.. I base my understanding on my own clarity towards experience and equanimity in the face of adversity. The Buddha only points the way, I myself must walk the path.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm From a realistic standpoint your view on the power of the will just seems like excuses for responsibility.
This is indeed a projection and thus a wrong assumption.. I need not repeat myself but I clearly stated that one is always responsible regardless of the circumstances. Whether one is weak or strong-willed, one is always responsible. One needs not live in make-believe that one has the strongest and most independent 'will' to take up responsibility because responsibility is always implied. If one needs to make oneself believe in something in order to be, then one really isn't that one believes to be.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm You have added quite a bit of ad hom above as well.
Oh you're playing the victim now? How convenient
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm Could it be that a person who experiences a lot of negativity in life constructs a narrative which justifies him being a small will in need of great changes and oceans of help from others?
The one playing victim?
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm I feel I want to take responsibility for all my behaviour,and this comes from a strong passionate will.
Stop wanting, start doing it. Just my two cents :)
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pm Once again a lot of assumptions.
Say what you want, you haven't provided any ground for evidence for the claims you made let alone have the credibility to talk about assumptions.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pmAnd lots of misreading of my post.
The irony coming from someone who misreads anyone else's post every other time. I don't have that track record, you do.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pmLet me clarify something to you. I will boil it down even further.
Clarify your own mind first and purify it from greed, aversion, delusion. As cappuccino and many others pointed out, you delight in putting others down, which in your own words you claimed to 'take pride' in doing what you do in this forum. Your bearing of the truth is solely based on what makes you feel good and that is a certain way to keep perpetuating your ignorance.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pmWanting and doing are one for me.
You're only embarrassing yourself at this point
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pmWe don't all need an outside ideology to support us.
Never argued for it. And so?
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pmYour detailed ideology is not in anyway universal,nor will it ever be.
If describing my experiences where I had clarity of mind void of greed, aversion and delusion is what you call an 'ideology', then it is rather encouraging to know that another approves of the practice :candle: . Not that it's necessary when the experience of non-greed, non-aversion and non-delusion is understood but thank you anyway :heart:
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pmThe proof of the pudding is how you deal with freespeech.
By rational thought backed up with justifications and without the attitude of pride amidst the prospect of "winning" an argument. On the flip end, to be downright honest and mindful of one's own motivation and to reflect on whether there is presence of greed, aversion or delusion with the experience. Pride and ill will are rooted in the unwholesome fyi
If it was just your personal experience that would be one thing,but
you are couching all your post in an ideology plus an inconsistent
use of "rationality".
A person's reaction to another's freespeech is always instructive.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
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dicsoncandra
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by dicsoncandra »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:01 amIf it was just your personal experience that would be one thing,but
you are couching all your post in an ideology
Is ideology the problem? An 'ideology' merely informs someone of ideas but it does not define the attitude that one has with regard to it. You have your ideology of what free will is that you are very much attached to. I have described how I define 'understanding' as the clarity of mind that is not rooted in bias or selfish intention such as wanting to prove one's ideology right or proving others wrong. One's attitude toward a particular view is what defines whether that view is held as an ideology or not. This is why I could confidently say that I understood what I experienced and I require nobody else to acknowledge my understanding because I have confirmed it for myself without bias. We have some ideologies right here and there, fine, not a problem.. now let's assess them. And this is where your biases hindered you, not anywhere else. What of 'greed, aversion, delusion' that is divorced from the human experience? What is wrong with borrowing Buddhist terminologies when I am clear on my unbiased attitude even if I spoke out of personal experience. What I do know is that these terminologies do describe my phenomenological experience quite accurately. If you have a big problem with people using Buddhist terminologies, what are you even doing here in a Buddhist forum? What is your intention even? I certainly think you need to start reflecting and work on that, with all due respect, and I will do so individually.
Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:01 amplus an inconsistent use of "rationality".
Explain yourself, provide justifications. You haven't backed up your assertions with intelligible reasonings which make them worthless to be very frank. They are mere accusations that carry no weight at all.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pmA person's reaction to another's freespeech is always instructive.
Again, what is your intention for going to a Buddhist forum and exerting "free speech"? Finding delight in arguments, taking pride in doing so? Very questionable and you shouldn't have needed anyone else (or multiple even) to point that out to you. I have no intention to publicly humiliate you but you have been very disruptive through imposing your "free speech" on people left and right. Regardless, this is what it has come down to so you work on what you need to do to be a mature and respectful human being. I'll mind my own business, good luck. PM me if you want me to respond to any of your refutation (defined as a disagreement with evidence), I don't need any rehearsal.

Metta
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Ceisiwr »

dicsoncandra wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:53 pm
Don’t feed the troll ;)
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

dicsoncandra wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:53 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:01 amIf it was just your personal experience that would be one thing,but
you are couching all your post in an ideology
Is ideology the problem? An 'ideology' merely informs someone of ideas but it does not define the attitude that one has with regard to it. You have your ideology of what free will is that you are very much attached to. I have described how I define 'understanding' as the clarity of mind that is not rooted in bias or selfish intention such as wanting to prove one's ideology right or proving others wrong. One's attitude toward a particular view is what defines whether that view is held as an ideology or not. This is why I could confidently say that I understood what I experienced and I require nobody else to acknowledge my understanding because I have confirmed it for myself without bias. We have some ideologies right here and there, fine, not a problem.. now let's assess them. And this is where your biases hindered you, not anywhere else. What of 'greed, aversion, delusion' that is divorced from the human experience? What is wrong with borrowing Buddhist terminologies when I am clear on my unbiased attitude even if I spoke out of personal experience. What I do know is that these terminologies do describe my phenomenological experience quite accurately. If you have a big problem with people using Buddhist terminologies, what are you even doing here in a Buddhist forum? What is your intention even? I certainly think you need to start reflecting and work on that, with all due respect, and I will do so individually.
Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:01 amplus an inconsistent use of "rationality".
Explain yourself, provide justifications. You haven't backed up your assertions with intelligible reasonings which make them worthless to be very frank. They are mere accusations that carry no weight at all.
Zenny wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:58 pmA person's reaction to another's freespeech is always instructive.
Again, what is your intention for going to a Buddhist forum and exerting "free speech"? Finding delight in arguments, taking pride in doing so? Very questionable and you shouldn't have needed anyone else (or multiple even) to point that out to you. I have no intention to publicly humiliate you but you have been very disruptive through imposing your "free speech" on people left and right. Regardless, this is what it has come down to so you work on what you need to do to be a mature and respectful human being. I'll mind my own business, good luck. PM me if you want me to respond to any of your refutation (defined as a disagreement with evidence), I don't need any rehearsal.

Metta


Ideology is a second hand system used by someone as an appeal to authority. A system used dogmatically to fill in the gaps in one's understanding. A procrustean system used to fit everything,including ones own experience.
What I'm saying about the will is from no book or teacher but from
ME. Like a poet possessing original material and expression from his Soul.
A person's attitude to this second hand ideology is instructive especially when someone disputes its Universal validity.
Someone may dispute my expression of the word will,but he uses the will itself to dispute it! That's the difference.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
SteRo
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by SteRo »

Zenny wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:52 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:17 pm
Zenny wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:54 pm
Well,your post has no truth in it according to your logic.
You name one possibility (according to my logic) but you've left out the other possibilities: it has truth in it according to my logic, it has both (no truth and truth) in it according to my logic and it has neither (truth nor non-truth) in it according to my logic.
And according to your logic those possibilities are not true either.
Since they express my attitude towards my thoughts but are nothing other than my thoughts themselves they have to be applied to their being stated as well. You see? ... Ad infinitum.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

SteRo wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:49 pm
Zenny wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:52 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:17 pm

You name one possibility (according to my logic) but you've left out the other possibilities: it has truth in it according to my logic, it has both (no truth and truth) in it according to my logic and it has neither (truth nor non-truth) in it according to my logic.
And according to your logic those possibilities are not true either.
Since they express my attitude towards my thoughts but are nothing other than my thoughts themselves they have to be applied to their being stated as well. You see? ... Ad infinitum.
Yep. Infinite uncertainty and agnosticism. Self refuting and asserted with certainty contrary to the meaning of the thought.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
SteRo
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by SteRo »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:59 pm
SteRo wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:49 pm
Zenny wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:52 pm

And according to your logic those possibilities are not true either.
Since they express my attitude towards my thoughts but are nothing other than my thoughts themselves they have to be applied to their being stated as well. You see? ... Ad infinitum.
Yep. Infinite uncertainty and agnosticism. Self refuting and asserted with certainty contrary to the meaning of the thought.
It may be that your concept "uncertainty" depends on the notion of "truth" for which there is no criterion so far. So for someone seeking truth (which is unfindable so far) "uncertainty" may feel like a deprivation. But for someone suspending judgement as to truth or non-truth since there hasn't been found a critierion for truth so far there is no such "uncertainty" but only suspension of judgment.
The concept "agnosticism" seems to have a meaning that actually is off-topic here:
Agnosticism is the view that the existence of God, the divine, or the supernatural is not certainly known.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

Since self is neither affirmed nor negated nor both nor neither your conclusion "Self refuting" does not apply. And since thoughts are merely expressed as they happen to me nothing is asserted in the context of these expressions.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

SteRo wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:44 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:59 pm
SteRo wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:49 pm

Since they express my attitude towards my thoughts but are nothing other than my thoughts themselves they have to be applied to their being stated as well. You see? ... Ad infinitum.
Yep. Infinite uncertainty and agnosticism. Self refuting and asserted with certainty contrary to the meaning of the thought.
It may be that your concept "uncertainty" depends on the notion of "truth" for which there is no criterion so far. So for someone seeking truth (which is unfindable so far) "uncertainty" may feel like a deprivation. But for someone suspending judgement as to truth or non-truth since there hasn't been found a critierion for truth so far there is no such "uncertainty" but only suspension of judgment.
The concept "agnosticism" seems to have a meaning that actually is off-topic here:
Agnosticism is the view that the existence of God, the divine, or the supernatural is not certainly known.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

Since self is neither affirmed nor negated nor both nor neither your conclusion "Self refuting" does not apply. And since thoughts are merely expressed as they happen to me nothing is asserted in the context of these expressions.

There is no criterion for truth according to you. So far.
For me there is and always has been.
Truth be told the fact you use the word truth shows that you have experience of it. So that is the criterion.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
SteRo
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by SteRo »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:51 pm There is no criterion for truth according to you. So far.
For me there is and always has been.
Well, for you not "always" but since you have learned the meaning of the words "truth", "true" and have been conditioned by positive or negative social reinforcement what it means to affirm something as "true".
Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:51 pm Truth be told the fact you use the word truth shows that you have experience of it. So that is the criterion.
Ah, I can use the words "demon", "ghosts", "god", "unicorn" without having the experience of these words representing "truth" and without there being a criterion for truth.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

SteRo wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:01 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:51 pm There is no criterion for truth according to you. So far.
For me there is and always has been.
Well, for you not "always" but since you have learned the meaning of the words "truth", "true" and have been conditioned by positive or negative social reinforcement what it means to affirm something as "true".
Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:51 pm Truth be told the fact you use the word truth shows that you have experience of it. So that is the criterion.
Ah, I can use the words "demon", "ghosts", "god", "unicorn" without having the experience of these words representing "truth" and without there being a criterion for truth.
No. I knew truth before I knew the word truth.
Your example of unicorns disproves your statement because you know rhe distinction between it and a horse. That's a criterion.
A huge amount of behaviour is not "learnt" . We have 7nnate instincts as well.
Did you have to learn to breathe?
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
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