Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

SteRo wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:34 am
Zenny wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:51 pm
SteRo wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:54 am

Wanting to know whether something is the case I study the arguments for it and the outcome may be that I judge: these are persuasive. Then I study the arguments against it and the outcome may be: these are persuasive, too.
So basically truth=persuasive to you.
No. The question of truth is a different one. But the question what persuasiveness of argumentation is based on is an interesting one and worth to be investigated. Formally in logic we speak of "true" and "false" but what makes one believe something is different from that. In this context the question "what is the criterion for truth?" becomes relevant because it asks for the objective criterion not for the subjective mental phenomenon that you are confusing with objective truth.
To stay on topic: Is personal self an objective truth? Or is it merely a subjective truth? If the latter then everything people experience may be called truth and we arrive at there being countless contradicting truths or at truth being mere convention [of a majority].
"Truth" is an abstract idea that seems to pull one's attention into a deadlock because there is simply no objective criterion for truth and the epistemological approach will necessarily end up in infinite regression or reciprocity or plain hypothesis. So the relevant question is "what makes humans believe [in] this or that?" because it also covers the belief in "truth[s]" and in case "belief" is necessarily connected with taking the object of belief to be true or truly existing then again the relevant question is "what makes humans believe [in] this or that?".
To stay on topic: What makes humans believe [in] personal self?
You have already answered what it is that makes you believe in personal self: your [subjective] experience which includes the way you are thinking.
OK. Basically you not understanding the meaning of the word truth,nor subjective and objective.
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SteRo
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by SteRo »

form wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:22 am
SteRo wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:10 pm
form wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:31 pm Human beings have a general idea of atman. It is not restricted to Indian culture. It is about existence forever.
No, "atman" is an Indian concept. Western/European interpretations of the term "atman" upon being confronted with texts of Indian origin have been stated above:
SteRo wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:55 am There are different understandings of "atman". One is personal self and the other is "soul". While there are convincing reasons that negate both, there are only convincing reasons that affirm personal self but none that affirm soul.
The concept of "soul" has meanings only in religious contexts while the concept of personal self has indispensable meanings in everyday life.
I would not rely on religions when it comes to personal self but simply acknowledge that there are convincing reasons that negate personal self as there are convincing reasons that affirm personal self.
The term is. But the concept is not. The concept is present in the universal dukka concept. Again the term is but concept is not.
No, the concept cannot be known outside of India because it is a concept related to Indian culture. Therefore Westerners/European apply the concepts they are familiar with as "translation" of the word "atman".
And again "dukkha" isn't a universal concept but an Indian concept.
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SteRo
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by SteRo »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:29 am OK. Basically you not understanding the meaning of the word truth,nor subjective and objective.
You are funny. You are not in a position to provide a criterion of truth but ready to debate the meaning of the word "truth". :lol:

If you want to investigate into theories of truth you may start here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth
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Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

SteRo wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:42 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:29 am OK. Basically you not understanding the meaning of the word truth,nor subjective and objective.
You are funny. You are not in a position to provide a criterion of truth but ready to debate the meaning of the word "truth". :lol:

If you want to investigate into theories of truth you may start here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth
I've given you truth criteria. It boils down to common sense and individual intuition.
Intersubjectivity.

Wiki doesn't agree with you anyway.
And wiki is plato.
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SteRo
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by SteRo »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:53 am
SteRo wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:42 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:29 am OK. Basically you not understanding the meaning of the word truth,nor subjective and objective.
You are funny. You are not in a position to provide a criterion of truth but ready to debate the meaning of the word "truth". :lol:

If you want to investigate into theories of truth you may start here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth
I've given you truth criteria. It boils down to common sense and individual intuition.
Since intuition is subjective and there is no canon of "common sense" you are advocating truth to be subjective. So the consequence is that objectively countless contradicting truths will result. This actually is the situation in the world ... endless debates.
Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:53 am Intersubjectivity.
Of course different individuals may agree on a convention what to call "true" given certain circumstances. This actually is what happens in the world in the different disciplines of science or in religious communities or among followers of certain philosophies.

Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:53 am Wiki doesn't agree with you anyway.
If Wiki not only describes definitions and theories of truth but advocates that there is truth or that there is no truth It can't agree with me because I have no position as to the existence or non-existence of truth. But I am not in a position to defend the positionlessness because there are only arguments for or against the existence of truth. If I would try to defend my positionlessness then on what grounds should I do this without contradicting my positionlessness?

Now returning to the main question of belief and assuming that any kind of belief is necessarily connected with taking the object of belief to be true or truly existing ... what do you think is it possbile for me to say "I have no position" without believing it [and without lying]?
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Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

SteRo wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:27 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:53 am
SteRo wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:42 am

You are funny. You are not in a position to provide a criterion of truth but ready to debate the meaning of the word "truth". :lol:

If you want to investigate into theories of truth you may start here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth
I've given you truth criteria. It boils down to common sense and individual intuition.
Since intuition is subjective and there is no canon of "common sense" you are advocating truth to be subjective. So the consequence is that objectively countless contradicting truths will result. This actually is the situation in the world ... endless debates.
Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:53 am Intersubjectivity.
Of course different individuals may agree on a convention what to call "true" given certain circumstances. This actually is what happens in the world in the different disciplines of science or in religious communities or among followers of certain philosophies.

Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:53 am Wiki doesn't agree with you anyway.
If Wiki not only describes definitions and theories of truth but advocates that there is truth or that there is no truth It can't agree with me because I have no position as to the existence or non-existence of truth. But I am not in a position to defend the positionlessness because there are only arguments for or against the existence of truth. If I would try to defend my positionlessness then on what grounds should I do this without contradicting my positionlessness?

Now returning to the main question of belief and assuming that any kind of belief is necessarily connected with taking the object of belief to be true or truly existing ... what do you think is it possbile for me to say "I have no position" without believing it [and without lying]?
Name me one objective truth?
To say no position on everything is a belief. One having no validity.
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form
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by form »

SteRo wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:41 am
form wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:22 am
SteRo wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:10 pm

No, "atman" is an Indian concept. Western/European interpretations of the term "atman" upon being confronted with texts of Indian origin have been stated above:
The term is. But the concept is not. The concept is present in the universal dukka concept. Again the term is but concept is not.
No, the concept cannot be known outside of India because it is a concept related to Indian culture. Therefore Westerners/European apply the concepts they are familiar with as "translation" of the word "atman".
And again "dukkha" isn't a universal concept but an Indian concept.
Have u read about some ancient kings trying to live forever? Egyptian Pharaoh, Shi Huangti. They do not know how to pronounce Atman. They do not understand Pali.

Have you heard of elderly complaining of physical sufferings due to old age? People lamenting due to lost of loved ones and possessions? Do they have to shout the term Dukka?
SteRo
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by SteRo »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:11 pm
SteRo wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:27 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:53 am

I've given you truth criteria. It boils down to common sense and individual intuition.
Since intuition is subjective and there is no canon of "common sense" you are advocating truth to be subjective. So the consequence is that objectively countless contradicting truths will result. This actually is the situation in the world ... endless debates.
Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:53 am Intersubjectivity.
Of course different individuals may agree on a convention what to call "true" given certain circumstances. This actually is what happens in the world in the different disciplines of science or in religious communities or among followers of certain philosophies.

Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:53 am Wiki doesn't agree with you anyway.
If Wiki not only describes definitions and theories of truth but advocates that there is truth or that there is no truth It can't agree with me because I have no position as to the existence or non-existence of truth. But I am not in a position to defend the positionlessness because there are only arguments for or against the existence of truth. If I would try to defend my positionlessness then on what grounds should I do this without contradicting my positionlessness?

Now returning to the main question of belief and assuming that any kind of belief is necessarily connected with taking the object of belief to be true or truly existing ... what do you think is it possbile for me to say "I have no position" without believing it [and without lying]?
Name me one objective truth?
Since the criterion for truth is an open issue I can't.
Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:11 pm To say no position on everything is a belief. One having no validity.
I would not say this. Because the criterion for truth is an open issue I cannot judge my thoughts as true or false. Suspending judgement as to whether true or false where should there be belief?
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
SteRo
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by SteRo »

form wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:31 am
SteRo wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:41 am
form wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:22 am

The term is. But the concept is not. The concept is present in the universal dukka concept. Again the term is but concept is not.
No, the concept cannot be known outside of India because it is a concept related to Indian culture. Therefore Westerners/European apply the concepts they are familiar with as "translation" of the word "atman".
And again "dukkha" isn't a universal concept but an Indian concept.
Have u read about some ancient kings trying to live forever? Egyptian Pharaoh, Shi Huangti. They do not know how to pronounce Atman. They do not understand Pali.

Have you heard of elderly complaining of physical sufferings due to old age? People lamenting due to lost of loved ones and possessions? Do they have to shout the term Dukka?
It seems you are projecting your beliefs as to learned concepts. I can understand this. If one engages in a certain kind of thinking in the affirmative over a longer period of time one may lose the ability to discern evidence and non-evidence. Of course believers of particular systems of thought explain everything to themselves in terms of the system of thought they believe in.
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Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

SteRo wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:34 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:11 pm
SteRo wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:27 am

Since intuition is subjective and there is no canon of "common sense" you are advocating truth to be subjective. So the consequence is that objectively countless contradicting truths will result. This actually is the situation in the world ... endless debates.


Of course different individuals may agree on a convention what to call "true" given certain circumstances. This actually is what happens in the world in the different disciplines of science or in religious communities or among followers of certain philosophies.



If Wiki not only describes definitions and theories of truth but advocates that there is truth or that there is no truth It can't agree with me because I have no position as to the existence or non-existence of truth. But I am not in a position to defend the positionlessness because there are only arguments for or against the existence of truth. If I would try to defend my positionlessness then on what grounds should I do this without contradicting my positionlessness?

Now returning to the main question of belief and assuming that any kind of belief is necessarily connected with taking the object of belief to be true or truly existing ... what do you think is it possbile for me to say "I have no position" without believing it [and without lying]?
Name me one objective truth?
Since the criterion for truth is an open issue I can't.
Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:11 pm To say no position on everything is a belief. One having no validity.
I would not say this. Because the criterion for truth is an open issue I cannot judge my thoughts as true or false. Suspending judgement as to whether true or false where should there be belief?
Your belief is that the criterion for truth is open to the extent you can't name one objective truth. That's a belief,and a system of thinking based on your personal uncertainty.
How can you critique and say they have a system or may lose the ability to discern evidence if you yourself are not certain on any issue?
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SteRo
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by SteRo »

Zenny wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:54 am
SteRo wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:34 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:11 pm

Name me one objective truth?
Since the criterion for truth is an open issue I can't.
Zenny wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:11 pm To say no position on everything is a belief. One having no validity.
I would not say this. Because the criterion for truth is an open issue I cannot judge my thoughts as true or false. Suspending judgement as to whether true or false where should there be belief?
Your belief is that the criterion for truth is open to the extent you can't name one objective truth. That's a belief,and a system of thinking based on your personal uncertainty.
How can you critique and say they have a system or may lose the ability to discern evidence if you yourself are not certain on any issue?
If thoughts happen to me why should these be beliefs? Criterion for truth being an open issue each thought that happens to me cannot be said to be true or false. Even this thought cannot be said to be true or false. Judgement suspended.
I am reading your words and thoughts happen to me and for the purpose of conversation I express these thoughts. Judgement as to either true or false suspended where could there be belief? :shrug:
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Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

SteRo wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:51 am
Zenny wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:54 am
SteRo wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:34 am
Since the criterion for truth is an open issue I can't.


I would not say this. Because the criterion for truth is an open issue I cannot judge my thoughts as true or false. Suspending judgement as to whether true or false where should there be belief?
Your belief is that the criterion for truth is open to the extent you can't name one objective truth. That's a belief,and a system of thinking based on your personal uncertainty.
How can you critique and say they have a system or may lose the ability to discern evidence if you yourself are not certain on any issue?
If thoughts happen to me why should these be beliefs? Criterion for truth being an open issue each thought that happens to me cannot be said to be true or false. Even this thought cannot be said to be true or false. Judgement suspended.
I am reading your words and thoughts happen to me and for the purpose of conversation I express these thoughts. Judgement as to either true or false suspended where could there be belief? :shrug:
Your suspension of judgement is a belief and system in fact a judgement. Suspending belief is a judgment.
You can't get away from judgement.
And in reality it's impossible to suspend judgement on everything.
As you already know.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
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SteRo
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by SteRo »

Zenny wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:15 pm
SteRo wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:51 am
Zenny wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:54 am
Your belief is that the criterion for truth is open to the extent you can't name one objective truth. That's a belief,and a system of thinking based on your personal uncertainty.
How can you critique and say they have a system or may lose the ability to discern evidence if you yourself are not certain on any issue?
If thoughts happen to me why should these be beliefs? Criterion for truth being an open issue each thought that happens to me cannot be said to be true or false. Even this thought cannot be said to be true or false. Judgement suspended.
I am reading your words and thoughts happen to me and for the purpose of conversation I express these thoughts. Judgement as to either true or false suspended where could there be belief? :shrug:
Your suspension of judgement is a belief and system in fact a judgement. Suspending belief is a judgment.
You can't get away from judgement.
And in reality it's impossible to suspend judgement on everything.
As you already know.
You can assert what you want since you can believe what you want. Of course you don't have to believe what say because I myself am just expressing thoughts that happen to me without judgement as to either truth or falsehood of my thoughts.

Belief is an interesting topic, isn't it? What makes human beings believe this or that? And what are the conditions for belief? What is the experience corresponding to the assertion of "this is true" or "this is false" and what are the conditions for these experiences without there being an objective criterion for truth that is independent of subjective experience? The dualism truth vs falsehood may be an inherent feature of human mentality that is dropped when it is experienced that life is possible without beliefs and that a life without beliefs is very peaceful or can be very peaceful ... well at least it is peacefuller than a life with beliefs ... I would say but whether it is true or not I prefer to leave open. Once belief arises that things or mental states are inherently good or bad the trouble begins ... and one may even become a buddhist :lol:
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Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

SteRo wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:50 am
Zenny wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:15 pm
SteRo wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:51 am

If thoughts happen to me why should these be beliefs? Criterion for truth being an open issue each thought that happens to me cannot be said to be true or false. Even this thought cannot be said to be true or false. Judgement suspended.
I am reading your words and thoughts happen to me and for the purpose of conversation I express these thoughts. Judgement as to either true or false suspended where could there be belief? :shrug:
Your suspension of judgement is a belief and system in fact a judgement. Suspending belief is a judgment.
You can't get away from judgement.
And in reality it's impossible to suspend judgement on everything.
As you already know.
You can assert what you want since you can believe what you want. Of course you don't have to believe what say because I myself am just expressing thoughts that happen to me without judgement as to either truth or falsehood of my thoughts.

Belief is an interesting topic, isn't it? What makes human beings believe this or that? And what are the conditions for belief? What is the experience corresponding to the assertion of "this is true" or "this is false" and what are the conditions for these experiences without there being an objective criterion for truth that is independent of subjective experience? The dualism truth vs falsehood may be an inherent feature of human mentality that is dropped when it is experienced that life is possible without beliefs and that a life without beliefs is very peaceful or can be very peaceful ... well at least it is peacefuller than a life with beliefs ... I would say but whether it is true or not I prefer to leave open. Once belief arises that things or mental states are inherently good or bad the trouble begins ... and one may even become a buddhist :lol:
All that you just said above are your beliefs.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
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SteRo
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by SteRo »

Zenny wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:11 pm
SteRo wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:50 am
Zenny wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:15 pm
Your suspension of judgement is a belief and system in fact a judgement. Suspending belief is a judgment.
You can't get away from judgement.
And in reality it's impossible to suspend judgement on everything.
As you already know.
You can assert what you want since you can believe what you want. Of course you don't have to believe what say because I myself am just expressing thoughts that happen to me without judgement as to either truth or falsehood of my thoughts.

Belief is an interesting topic, isn't it? What makes human beings believe this or that? And what are the conditions for belief? What is the experience corresponding to the assertion of "this is true" or "this is false" and what are the conditions for these experiences without there being an objective criterion for truth that is independent of subjective experience? The dualism truth vs falsehood may be an inherent feature of human mentality that is dropped when it is experienced that life is possible without beliefs and that a life without beliefs is very peaceful or can be very peaceful ... well at least it is peacefuller than a life with beliefs ... I would say but whether it is true or not I prefer to leave open. Once belief arises that things or mental states are inherently good or bad the trouble begins ... and one may even become a buddhist :lol:
All that you just said above are your beliefs.
Only thoughts happening to me upon seeing your words. <- These again are only thoughts happening to me. <- These again are only thoughts happening to me. <- ... <- ... etc etc ad infinitum.
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