Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SteRo
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by SteRo »

Zenny wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:52 am
SteRo wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:36 pm
Zenny wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:45 pm
So everything you say is not true.
No because the concepts "true" or "not true" don't apply.
Zenny wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:45 pm That's what I thought!
Of course. Your thinking is the thinking of a dogmatist.
Well your thinking that those who don't agree with your scheme are dogmatists doesn't apply!
Neither does my thinking not apply, nor does it apply, nor both, nor neither.
Zenny wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:52 am So you have refuted yourself.
Neither have I refuted myself, nor have I not refuted myself, nor both, nor neither.
Zenny wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 4:52 am
Seriously,you don't see this?
Don't let yourself be impulsively misguided when I am using standard verbal expressions that are formally affirmative or formally negative. As I've instructed yourself above you should always associate the [negative or positive] tetralemma formula to get my message. Since obviously you can't or you are not willing to you're very good in your dogmatist role play and make a good conversation partner for me! :lol:

You may also understand my expressions this way:
e.g. "Your thinking is the thinking of a dogmatist."
Here the basis for my statement is "Your thinking is not the thinking of a dogmatist." with a truth value of -1 assigned. And through applying an opposing affirmation I am only removing the -1 negation without switching to the positive truth value +1 which results and a 0 ('zero') truth value. Thus mentally assigning 'zero' truth is neither affirmation (+1) nor negation (-1). Be referred to What I've written above:
SteRo wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:34 pm Zenny, I think what needs to be further analysed is affirmation and negation.

Let's take the proposition p.
Affirmation may be expressed like "p is true" or "it is the case that p". You may see that there is a mental factor involved when one says "p is true" or "it is the case that p" and that mental factor is assigned a subjective truth value of +1.
Now another contradicts saying "p is false" or "it is not the case that p but not-p is the case". Then this is called negation of p, right? Since from the perspective of the subject this is the exact opposite of the affirmation a mental factor is involved which is assigned a subjective value of -1.

Now both, +1 and -1 are connected with belief. In case of +1 there is belief that p is true and in case of -1 there is belief that not-p is true.

But what about '0' (zero)? If the expression "it is not the case that p" is without "not-p is the case" but is a mere removal of affirmation of p without affirmation of not-p? In that case a mental factor is involved which must be assigned a subjective truth value of 0 (zero). See? In this case saying "is not" or "has not" or "does not" does not affirm the negation to be true but only removes the affirmation without setting something in its place and the result is neither +1 nor -1 but 0 ('zero' truth).

So when conventionally negating something in speech that may mean that one affirms the negation to be true (switching from +1 to -1) or that may mean that one only removes the affirmation (switching from +1 to 0) without affirming the opposite (-1). But as to the words used in both cases it's something like 'is not', 'has not' or 'does not' which makes it impossible for a believer in truths to differentiate a negative claim of truth (-1) from an expression of non-belief (0) in either affirmation or negation.

Therefore for the dumb believers in truths the skeptics have the tetralemma expression "neither is, nor is not, nor both, nor neither" which leaves no room for misunderstanding a simple negation as a truth claim since it extends the negation to all possible alternatives of truth claims :lol:
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:11 am ...
Well,your post has no truth in it according to your logic.
Last edited by retrofuturist on Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Verbatim quote removed
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jons
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by jons »

Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:48 am The thing that unites buddhism and hinduism is Meditation as the tool for liberation.
With this in mind,why do YOU think Hindu meditators come up with atman,and modern buddhists with anatman?
A curious state of affairs.
In Khmer Literature, the word Atman means body, and the word Anatman means nobody. In the context of the example in Khmer for the Atman mean Automatic. So I perceived to be the Nature of Automatic Process. It is not a self or a soul. It is the nature of automatic processing. And what is the Nature Of Automatic processing?

Aging is the Nature of Automatic Processing. For instance, when was the last time you have to remind yourself to grow up and grow old. If you have to remind yourself to grow up and grow old, you would still be a fetus today.

Breathing is the Nature of Automatic Processing. For instance, when was the last time you have to remind yourself to breathe.

The blood flow in the body is just the same... the hair grows longer.....

Anything subjected to Anatta is subjected to change.

The trees, the plants, the Animals, and they are all subjected to Anatta.
This is my definition of Anatta

My Opinion
Jons
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Ceisiwr »

jons wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:46 pm In Khmer Literature, the word Atman means body, and the word Anatman means nobody. In the context of the example in Khmer for the Atman mean Automatic. So I perceived to be the Nature of Automatic Process. It is not a self or a soul. It is the nature of automatic processing. And what is the Nature Of Automatic processing?
In the Upanishads Atman can also mean “body” as well as the eternal self.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

jons wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:46 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:48 am The thing that unites buddhism and hinduism is Meditation as the tool for liberation.
With this in mind,why do YOU think Hindu meditators come up with atman,and modern buddhists with anatman?
A curious state of affairs.
In Khmer Literature, the word Atman means body, and the word Anatman means nobody. In the context of the example in Khmer for the Atman mean Automatic. So I perceived to be the Nature of Automatic Process. It is not a self or a soul. It is the nature of automatic processing. And what is the Nature Of Automatic processing?

Aging is the Nature of Automatic Processing. For instance, when was the last time you have to remind yourself to grow up and grow old. If you have to remind yourself to grow up and grow old, you would still be a fetus today.

Breathing is the Nature of Automatic Processing. For instance, when was the last time you have to remind yourself to breathe.

The blood flow in the body is just the same... the hair grows longer.....

Anything subjected to Anatta is subjected to change.

The trees, the plants, the Animals, and they are all subjected to Anatta.
This is my definition of Anatta

My Opinion
Jons
So anatta is a process with no volition behind it?
If atman can also mean body this does not square fully with the upanishad doctrine of atman=brahman?
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SteRo
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by SteRo »

Zenny wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:54 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:11 am ...
Well,your post has no truth in it according to your logic.
You name one possibility (according to my logic) but you've left out the other possibilities: it has truth in it according to my logic, it has both (no truth and truth) in it according to my logic and it has neither (truth nor non-truth) in it according to my logic.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

SteRo wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:17 pm
Zenny wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:54 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:11 am ...
Well,your post has no truth in it according to your logic.
You name one possibility (according to my logic) but you've left out the other possibilities: it has truth in it according to my logic, it has both (no truth and truth) in it according to my logic and it has neither (truth nor non-truth) in it according to my logic.
And according to your logic those possibilities are not true either.
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jons
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by jons »

Zenny wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:52 am
jons wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:46 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:48 am
So anatta is a process with no volition behind it?
If atman can also mean body this does not square fully with the upanishad doctrine of atman=brahman?
Yes.
You may try and apply the "Auto Process" to feeling (vedana), perception (sanna), consciousness (vinanna), mental formation (sankara), mental conditioning (kilesa), triggering outflow (asava) action/deed (kamma).
You will see that they go through "auto process" and you are oblivious about them.

My Opinion
Jons
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Pröh
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Pröh »

Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self. Were consciousness self, then this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.' And since consciousness is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.
"Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent pleasant or painful?" — "Painful, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir."
Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic

P.S.
i remember another sutta where buddha says ummmmm something along the lines of "better to call body a self than mind, since at least the body only changes slowly over time, but the mind is always changing" umm anyone remember this sutta's name? thank you!! :heart:
Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

jons wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:04 am
Zenny wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:52 am
jons wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:46 pm
So anatta is a process with no volition behind it?
If atman can also mean body this does not square fully with the upanishad doctrine of atman=brahman?
Yes.
You may try and apply the "Auto Process" to feeling (vedana), perception (sanna), consciousness (vinanna), mental formation (sankara), mental conditioning (kilesa), triggering outflow (asava) action/deed (kamma).
You will see that they go through "auto process" and you are oblivious about them.

My Opinion
Jons

So do you have the will to follow or not follow buddhism or is it an auto process?
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
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jons
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by jons »

Zenny wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:44 am
jons wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:04 am
Zenny wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:52 am
So anatta is a process with no volition behind it?
If atman can also mean body this does not square fully with the upanishad doctrine of atman=brahman?
Yes.
You may try and apply the "Auto Process" to feeling (vedana), perception (sanna), consciousness (vinanna), mental formation (sankara), mental conditioning (kilesa), triggering outflow (asava) action/deed (kamma).
You will see that they go through "auto process" and you are oblivious about them.

My Opinion
Jons

So do you have the will to follow or not follow buddhism or is it an auto process?
The Buddha did not say anything about -----ism or what other people interpretation of the teachings. The Buddha teachings is about suffering and ends of suffering. No one is suffering my pain or relieving my pain. It is about my pain. It is about learning what the Buddha taught and realized for myself to realize the end of pain.

Svākkhāto Bhagavatā Dhammo
sandiṭṭhiko akāliko
ehipassiko opanayiko
paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhī’ti.

Well expounded is the Dhamma by the Exalted One, directly visible, timeless, calling one to come and see, leading onwards, to be personally realized by the wise.

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Jons
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dicsoncandra
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by dicsoncandra »

Zenny wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:44 am
jons wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:04 am
Zenny wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:52 am
So anatta is a process with no volition behind it?
If atman can also mean body this does not square fully with the upanishad doctrine of atman=brahman?
Yes.
You may try and apply the "Auto Process" to feeling (vedana), perception (sanna), consciousness (vinanna), mental formation (sankara), mental conditioning (kilesa), triggering outflow (asava) action/deed (kamma).
You will see that they go through "auto process" and you are oblivious about them.

My Opinion
Jons

So do you have the will to follow or not follow buddhism or is it an auto process?
You are forgetting that all of us need to start as unenlightened, in which the sense of self exists. Our desire and effort toward liberation is the craving which is a mean to cross all cravings, conceit which is a mean to cross conceit. Through exerting sense-restraint and not acting out of greed, aversion and delusion, the nature of self that is dependently originated can be understood. One learns to see that the sense of self is secondary to the five aggregates and the assumption that the self is the master controller is debunked
arising is manifest;
ceasing is manifest;
change-while-standing is manifest.

Link to website: http://dicsonstable.blog/
Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

jons wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:27 pm
Zenny wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:44 am
jons wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:04 am

Yes.
You may try and apply the "Auto Process" to feeling (vedana), perception (sanna), consciousness (vinanna), mental formation (sankara), mental conditioning (kilesa), triggering outflow (asava) action/deed (kamma).
You will see that they go through "auto process" and you are oblivious about them.

My Opinion
Jons

So do you have the will to follow or not follow buddhism or is it an auto process?
The Buddha did not say anything about -----ism or what other people interpretation of the teachings. The Buddha teachings is about suffering and ends of suffering. No one is suffering my pain or relieving my pain. It is about my pain. It is about learning what the Buddha taught and realized for myself to realize the end of pain.

Svākkhāto Bhagavatā Dhammo
sandiṭṭhiko akāliko
ehipassiko opanayiko
paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhī’ti.

Well expounded is the Dhamma by the Exalted One, directly visible, timeless, calling one to come and see, leading onwards, to be personally realized by the wise.

My opinion
Jons

OK. But do you have the will to follow the teachings about suffering or not?
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
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Zenny
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by Zenny »

dicsoncandra wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:45 pm
Zenny wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:44 am
jons wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:04 am

Yes.
You may try and apply the "Auto Process" to feeling (vedana), perception (sanna), consciousness (vinanna), mental formation (sankara), mental conditioning (kilesa), triggering outflow (asava) action/deed (kamma).
You will see that they go through "auto process" and you are oblivious about them.

My Opinion
Jons

So do you have the will to follow or not follow buddhism or is it an auto process?
You are forgetting that all of us need to start as unenlightened, in which the sense of self exists. Our desire and effort toward liberation is the craving which is a mean to cross all cravings, conceit which is a mean to cross conceit. Through exerting sense-restraint and not acting out of greed, aversion and delusion, the nature of self that is dependently originated can be understood. One learns to see that the sense of self is secondary to the five aggregates and the assumption that the self is the master controller is debunked
Yes. But do you have free will in this process?
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cappuccino
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Re: Buddhism and Hinduism on Atman.

Post by cappuccino »

Zenny wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:59 pm But do you have free will in this process?
one would run from a tiger


which is the threat of hell or suffering
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