Koan and its relation to Theravada Tipitaka?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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SarathW
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Koan and its relation to Theravada Tipitaka?

Post by SarathW »

Koan and its relation to Theravada Tipitaka?
Please list the Koan you know and its relation to Theravada Tipitaka.
It appears many misrepresent Koan as nonsensical statements, but for me, they have an underline message in Theravada Tipitaka.
I also noted they do not give the full Koan so people get more confused.
In my opinion, the Koan is a way of testing your knowledge of Tipitaka and practice.

For instance, I found this.

You can make the sound of two hands clapping.
What is the sound of one hand?

Can you guess the meaning of the above as per Theravada Tipitaka?

By the way, I found the following video was very interesting.

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
denise
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Re: Koan and its relation to Theravada Tipitaka?

Post by denise »

Thanks...a very good teacher...understood everything he said... :anjali:
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Dan74
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Re: Koan and its relation to Theravada Tipitaka?

Post by Dan74 »

The dude above commits many rookie errors.

From mistranslating "Hinayana" as "Smaller/Lesser Vehicle" where "hina" is sadly much more negatively loaded, to more importantly construing Sunyata as "clearness" or "openness" which while being admirable qualities have nothing to do with Emptiness either within Theravada nor Mahayana.

Finally that Zen story with Mahakasyapa and the Flower is likely a late one, but regardless, it is not about the deeper enlightenment being non-verbal. I had a great non-verbal answer at my last Rinzai Sanzen. But the Roshi threw it out. The point of any awakening, he said, is that we can embody and express it, as the circumstances require. Not as we want it.

Sorry, I didn't go beyond this. He has no first-hand knowledge of what he speaks of.
_/|\_
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Koan and its relation to Theravada Tipitaka?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Dan74 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:04 pm The dude above commits many rookie errors.

From mistranslating "Hinayana" as "Smaller/Lesser Vehicle" where "hina" is sadly much more negatively loaded, to more importantly construing Sunyata as "clearness" or "openness" which while being admirable qualities have nothing to do with Emptiness either within Theravada nor Mahayana.

Finally that Zen story with Mahakasyapa and the Flower is likely a late one, but regardless, it is not about the deeper enlightenment being non-verbal. I had a great non-verbal answer at my last Rinzai Sanzen. But the Roshi threw it out. The point of any awakening, he said, is that we can embody and express it, as the circumstances require. Not as we want it.

Sorry, I didn't go beyond this. He has no first-hand knowledge of what he speaks of.
I still don’t quite understand the point of Koans. Can you put it in a way a Theravādin might somewhat understand?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: Koan and its relation to Theravada Tipitaka?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:10 pm I still don’t quite understand the point of Koans. Can you put it in a way a Theravādin might somewhat understand?
Maha-parinibbana Sutta wrote:there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back
Last edited by cappuccino on Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:10 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Dan74
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Re: Koan and its relation to Theravada Tipitaka?

Post by Dan74 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:10 pm
Dan74 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:04 pm The dude above commits many rookie errors.

From mistranslating "Hinayana" as "Smaller/Lesser Vehicle" where "hina" is sadly much more negatively loaded, to more importantly construing Sunyata as "clearness" or "openness" which while being admirable qualities have nothing to do with Emptiness either within Theravada nor Mahayana.

Finally that Zen story with Mahakasyapa and the Flower is likely a late one, but regardless, it is not about the deeper enlightenment being non-verbal. I had a great non-verbal answer at my last Rinzai Sanzen. But the Roshi threw it out. The point of any awakening, he said, is that we can embody and express it, as the circumstances require. Not as we want it.

Sorry, I didn't go beyond this. He has no first-hand knowledge of what he speaks of.
I still don’t quite understand the point of Koans. Can you put it in a way a Theravādin might somewhat understand?
Fundamentally, a koan is an experience. The point is not to analyse or interpret, but rather to experience the master's mind before he said it.

Read Ajahn Chah. He got the point.

That's as good an entry point for a Theravadan as any.
_/|\_
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Sam Vara
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Re: Koan and its relation to Theravada Tipitaka?

Post by Sam Vara »

Dan74 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:40 pm
Read Ajahn Chah. He got the point.

That's as good an entry point for a Theravadan as any.
‘If you can’t go forward and you can’t go back and you can’t stand still, where can you go?’ - Ajahn Chah. :sage:
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Dan74
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Re: Koan and its relation to Theravada Tipitaka?

Post by Dan74 »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:53 pm
Dan74 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:40 pm
Read Ajahn Chah. He got the point.

That's as good an entry point for a Theravadan as any.
‘If you can’t go forward and you can’t go back and you can’t stand still, where can you go?’ - Ajahn Chah. :sage:
He was a gem. :bow: :bow: :bow: Mind you, that was an old Zen koan, SV. But Ajahn Chah, he was as good as they get. Thank you.
_/|\_
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Koan and its relation to Theravada Tipitaka?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Dan74 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:57 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:53 pm
Dan74 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:40 pm
Read Ajahn Chah. He got the point.

That's as good an entry point for a Theravadan as any.
‘If you can’t go forward and you can’t go back and you can’t stand still, where can you go?’ - Ajahn Chah. :sage:
He was a gem. :bow: :bow: :bow: Mind you, that was an old Zen koan, SV. But Ajahn Chah, he was as good as they get. Thank you.
Actually I think it’s found in the suttas
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Koan and its relation to Theravada Tipitaka?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Dan74 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:57 pm
I was thinking of this:
“How, dear sir, did you cross the flood?”

“By not halting, friend, and by not straining I crossed the flood.”

“But how is it, dear sir, that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?”

“When I came to a standstill, friend, then I sank; but when I struggled, then I got swept away. It is in this way, friend, that by not halting and by not straining I crossed the flood.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.1/en/bodhi
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Dan74
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Re: Koan and its relation to Theravada Tipitaka?

Post by Dan74 »

Sinking... oh so hopelessly sinking... glug glug glug!!!
_/|\_
SarathW
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Re: Koan and its relation to Theravada Tipitaka?

Post by SarathW »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:40 pm
Dan74 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:57 pm
I was thinking of this:
“How, dear sir, did you cross the flood?”

“By not halting, friend, and by not straining I crossed the flood.”

“But how is it, dear sir, that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?”

“When I came to a standstill, friend, then I sank; but when I struggled, then I got swept away. It is in this way, friend, that by not halting and by not straining I crossed the flood.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.1/en/bodhi
:goodpost:
I thought it was reffering to middle path.
Or even to the point Buddha said to Angulimala "I have stopped, but you have not stopped"
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: Koan and its relation to Theravada Tipitaka?

Post by SarathW »

You can make the sound of two hands clapping.
What is the sound of one hand?
In my opinion this is similar to:
Sight is actually dependent on the eye as base, the object to be seen, and the operation of eye-consciousness. Similarly, there is ear, sound, ear-consciousness; nose, smell, nose-consciousness; tongue, taste, tongue-consciousness; body, touch, body-consciousness; and mind, thoughts, mind-consciousness.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el147.html

ie: When the object contact with the ear , ear consciousness arises.
Hence without the object or the ear, the year consciousness does not arise. ie: there is no sound.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Dan74
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Re: Koan and its relation to Theravada Tipitaka?

Post by Dan74 »

Here's a little snippet about koans (Chinese: gong'an) from Guo Gu's Passing through the Gateless Barrier:
koansguogu.pdf
(125 KiB) Downloaded 35 times
Perhaps it would help to know that Zen masters of old and new did not commonly behave as described in the koans. Koans really depict a unique situation - when a practitioner is on a cusp of insight and the master is doing what he can to help him along (like a chick trying to break out of the shell and the mother hen pecking at the same spot from the outside, is one way used to describe this).

A collection of Master Ta Hui's letters,one of the people who developed the koan method, translated as Swampland Flowers, illustrates this well. Direct and to the point.
_/|\_
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