What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

[Spiny Norman]

That isn't what the DO suttas describe though. They describe a progressive cessation of all the nidanas, not just the cessation of ignorance.

No. Nibbana is defined including calming of sankharas. Arahants continue to have mind-body, consciousness, contract, feeling, etc.

And what, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence; with the cessation of existence, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world.

“In dependence on the ear and sounds … … In dependence on the mind and mental phenomena, mind-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving comes cessation of clinging … cessation of existence … cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.44/en/bodhi

But SN 12.44 is an exception, and most DO suttas do describe the progressive cessation of all nidanas. Basing an interpretation of DO on an exception seems like a stretch to me.

[SarathW]

The way I understand the cessation of ignorance is progressive.
When you become you cease the doubt, clinging to rites and rituals the personality belief.

[Spiny Norman]

The way I understand the cessation of ignorance is progressive.
When you become you cease the doubt, clinging to rites and rituals the personality belief.

There seem to be different views about cessation. Some says it's sudden, some say it's gradual or progressive.

[SarathW]

The way I understand the cessation of ignorance is progressive.
When you become you cease the doubt, clinging to rites and rituals the personality belief.

There seem to be different views about cessation. Some says it's sudden, some say it's gradual or progressive.

Agree.
There are many Buddhist stories to support both.

[Pondera]

Thanks. That's basically describing the cessation of clinging and grasping.
But the DO suttas describe ALL the nidanas ceasing. It's not a selective cessation of the "problem" nidanas like ignorance, craving, etc., it's ALL of them.

Yes, I guess whether or not one can make sense of it depends on what one takes the nidanas to be.

We can only go on how they're actually described, eg in SN12.2. Another difficulty is that the aggregates all appear in the nidanas, so presumably the aggregates would cease along with the nidanas. Or not?

I've seen various attempts to resolve these contradictions, but none that really nail it.

Form, obviously, does not “cease”. Not in the same way that “perception and feeling” cease. The skhandas come to their end outside the experience of the skhandas coming to their end.

So, for this nasty nidana of name and form it is “feeling and perception” that put cessation to name and form. This is, however, relative to the one being enlightened.

For the one being enlightened, perception and feeling of the six sense spheres end - but, as the very near “neither perception nor non perception” attainment shows us, that is not to say that there is any kind of “nirodha”’of sense spheres.

Nor is there a nirodha of name a form. There is simply an overcoming of the nasty tendency to attach “name” to “form”. Nor is there “nama” only or “rupa” only. There is neither. Because they are outside the range of one in cessation. Not because they have ceased in anyway.

“Consciousness” is a technical term denoting “clinging” on the subtlest of levels. It is not a term indicating “awareness”. It is the “clinging aggregate” of consciousness. The most pernicious of all. It does not denote “awareness”. It is the effervescent proclivity of the mind to attach perception and feeling on to nama rupa.

When it has been dispatched, perception, feeling, and Nama rupa are outside the field of awareness of one who is approaching nirodha Samapatti.

[Spiny Norman]

Yes, I guess whether or not one can make sense of it depends on what one takes the nidanas to be.

We can only go on how they're actually described, eg in SN12.2. Another difficulty is that the aggregates all appear in the nidanas, so presumably the aggregates would cease along with the nidanas. Or not?

I've seen various attempts to resolve these contradictions, but none that really nail it.

Form, obviously, does not “cease”. Not in the same way that “perception and feeling” cease. The skhandas come to their end outside the experience of the skhandas coming to their end.

So, for this nasty nidana of name and form it is “feeling and perception” that put cessation to name and form. This is, however, relative to the one being enlightened.

For the one being enlightened, perception and feeling of the six sense spheres end - but, as the very near “neither perception nor non perception” attainment shows us, that is not to say that there is any kind of “nirodha”’of sense spheres.

Nor is there a nirodha of name a form. There is simply an overcoming of the nasty tendency to attach “name” to “form”. Nor is there “nama” only or “rupa” only. There is neither. Because they are outside the range of one in cessation. Not because they have ceased in anyway.

“Consciousness” is a technical term denoting “clinging” on the subtlest of levels. It is not a term indicating “awareness”. It is the “clinging aggregate” of consciousness. The most pernicious of all. It does not denote “awareness”. It is the effervescent proclivity of the mind to attach perception and feeling on to nama rupa.

When it has been dispatched, perception, feeling, and Nama rupa are outside the field of awareness of one who is approaching nirodha Samapatti.

So all the nidanas cease for the one being enlightened?

You seem to be saying that vinnana (sense-consciousness) ceases too, leaving just "awareness". But what's the Pali term for this awareness, and where does it appear in the suttas?

[cappuccino]

leaving just "awareness". But what's the Pali term for this awareness, and where does it appear in the suttas?

Viññanam anidassanam

Kevatta Sutta

MN 49 mentions that it "does not partake in the allness of the All"

[Spiny Norman]

leaving just "awareness". But what's the Pali term for this awareness, and where does it appear in the suttas?

Viññanam anidassanam

Kevatta Sutta

MN 49 mentions that it "does not partake in the allness of the All"

So what are the differences between vinanna and vinnanam anidassam?

[DooDoot]

So what are the differences between vinanna and vinnanam anidassam?

1. vinnanam anidassam was taught to Brahmins & Brahma Gods (DN 11; MN 49)

2. vinnanam anidassam relies on the cessation of a Brahmanistic nama-rupa.

3. after vinnanam anidassam was taught to Brahmins & Brahma Gods, none attained enlightenment

[cappuccino]

So what are the differences between vinanna and vinnanam anidassam?

Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.

Kevatta Sutta

[SarathW]

You seem to be saying that vinnana (sense-consciousness) ceases too, leaving just "awareness". But what's the Pali term for this awareness, and where does it appear in the suttas?

Vinnana in Dependent Origination is the rebirth making Vinnana (Parisandhi Vinnana)

[Pondera]

We can only go on how they're actually described, eg in SN12.2. Another difficulty is that the aggregates all appear in the nidanas, so presumably the aggregates would cease along with the nidanas. Or not?

I've seen various attempts to resolve these contradictions, but none that really nail it.

Form, obviously, does not “cease”. Not in the same way that “perception and feeling” cease. The skhandas come to their end outside the experience of the skhandas coming to their end.

So, for this nasty nidana of name and form it is “feeling and perception” that put cessation to name and form. This is, however, relative to the one being enlightened.

For the one being enlightened, perception and feeling of the six sense spheres end - but, as the very near “neither perception nor non perception” attainment shows us, that is not to say that there is any kind of “nirodha”’of sense spheres.

Nor is there a nirodha of name a form. There is simply an overcoming of the nasty tendency to attach “name” to “form”. Nor is there “nama” only or “rupa” only. There is neither. Because they are outside the range of one in cessation. Not because they have ceased in anyway.

“Consciousness” is a technical term denoting “clinging” on the subtlest of levels. It is not a term indicating “awareness”. It is the “clinging aggregate” of consciousness. The most pernicious of all. It does not denote “awareness”. It is the effervescent proclivity of the mind to attach perception and feeling on to nama rupa.

When it has been dispatched, perception, feeling, and Nama rupa are outside the field of awareness of one who is approaching nirodha Samapatti.

So all the nidanas cease for the one being enlightened?

You seem to be saying that vinnana (sense-consciousness) ceases too, leaving just "awareness". But what's the Pali term for this awareness, and where does it appear in the suttas?

It is found in AN 11.8

“Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t be aware of the eye or sights, ear or sounds, nose or smells, tongue or tastes, or body or touches. They wouldn’t be aware of earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t be aware of the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t be aware of this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t be aware of what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. Yet they would be aware?”
“It could be, Ānanda.”

[pegembara]

It is found in AN 11.8

“Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t be aware of the eye or sights, ear or sounds, nose or smells, tongue or tastes, or body or touches. They wouldn’t be aware of earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t be aware of the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t be aware of this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t be aware of what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. Yet they would be aware?”
“It could be, Ānanda.”

What would the mendicant be aware of? That is something to consider.

"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of the infinitude of space.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Here is that word again.

Anupubbanirodha Sutta: Step-by-step Stopping

"Monks, there are these nine step-by-step stoppings. Which nine?

"When one has attained the first jhāna, the perception of sensuality has been stopped. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thoughts & evaluations [verbal fabrications] have been stopped. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has been stopped. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breaths [bodily fabrications] have been stopped. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has been stopped. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has been stopped. When one has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has been stopped. When one has attained the dimension of neither-perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has been stopped. When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perceptions & feelings [mental fabrications] have been stopped.

"These are the nine step-by-step stoppings."

"Excellent, monk. Excellent. These three feelings have been spoken of by me: a feeling of pleasure, a feeling of pain, & a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. These are the three feelings spoken of by me. But I have also said: 'Whatever is felt comes under stress.' That I have stated simply in connection with the inconstancy of fabrications. That I have stated simply in connection with the nature of fabrications to end... in connection with the nature of fabrications to fall away... to fade away... to cease... in connection with the nature of fabrications to change.

"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of neither-perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has ceased. When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling have ceased. When a monk's effluents have ended, passion has ceased, aversion has ceased, delusion has ceased.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[SarathW]

Pegembra.

When one has attained the first jhāna, the perception of sensuality has been stopped.

What is the perception of sensuality has been stopped? Is this what they called the wholesome Vitakka and Vicara?

[pegembara]

Pegembra.

When one has attained the first jhāna, the perception of sensuality has been stopped.

What is the perception of sensuality has been stopped? Is this what they called the wholesome Vitakka and Vicara?

According to the above, vitakka and vicara cease in 2nd jhana.
Speech in 1st jhana which I presume would be the normal thinking process.

Also interestingly,

When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased.
Meaning there is only a perception of space, nothingness, consciousness and feeling.