What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SarathW
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Re: What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

Post by SarathW »

pegembara wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:01 am
SarathW wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:52 am :goodpost: Pegembra.
When one has attained the first jhāna, the perception of sensuality has been stopped.
What is the perception of sensuality has been stopped? Is this what they called the wholesome Vitakka and Vicara?
According to the above, vitakka and vicara cease in 2nd jhana.
Speech in 1st jhana which I presume would be the normal thinking process.

Also interestingly,

When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased.
Meaning there is only a perception of space, nothingness and consciousness.
In first Jahana you have Vitakka Vicara Pithy Sukha and Ekagata.
What sort of Vitakka and Vicara in first Jhana?
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pegembara
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Re: What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

Post by pegembara »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:09 am
In first Jahana you have Vitakka Vicara Pithy Sukha and Ekagata.
What sort of Vitakka and Vicara in first Jhana?
"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of neither-perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has ceased. When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling have ceased. When a monk's effluents have ended, passion has ceased, aversion has ceased, delusion has ceased.
Not so into definitions but I think vitakka/vicara is not normal kinds of thinking but more related wholesome thinking related to the meditation practice. Not the normal kinds of thoughts ("speech" as defined above is absent in the 1st jhana).

More significant is that in the 2nd jhana, there is no more thinking going on. Not even thoughts of renunciation or metta/karuna/mudita/upekkha.

viewtopic.php?t=28043

Also in the 4th jhana, the breathing has ceased.
Its equivalent in found in the Cullavedalla Sutta.

The implication is that mental fabrication is involved in the perception of infinite space, nothingness, consciousness.
"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first ie. 2nd jhana, then bodily fabrications, ie 4th jhana then mental fabrications ie.arupa jhanas.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by pegembara on Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:55 am, edited 5 times in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Spiny Norman
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Re: What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:56 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:50 am

You seem to be saying that vinnana (sense-consciousness) ceases too, leaving just "awareness". But what's the Pali term for this awareness, and where does it appear in the suttas?
Vinnana in Dependent Origination is the rebirth making Vinnana (Parisandhi Vinnana)
I think that's a commentarial interpretation. In the suttas, vinnana is just 6-fold sense-consciousness. That stock definition is also the one used in DO (see SN 12.2).
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