You can start the practice at any level of faith, Sila or Samadhi, etc.
But the final wisdom comes from ending ignorance.
So ending ignorance is the final cessation (Nirodha)
You can start the practice at any level of faith, Sila or Samadhi, etc.
Thanks. That's basically describing the cessation of clinging and grasping.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:52 amThis sutta might be helpful: SN 22.05Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:35 amThat isn't what the DO suttas describe though. They describe a progressive cessation of all the nidanas, not just the cessation of ignorance.
And what is the ending of form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness?
It’s when a mendicant doesn’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging.
What don’t they approve, welcome, or keep clinging to? They don’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging to form. As a result, relishing of form ceases. When that relishing ceases, grasping ceases. When grasping ceases, continued existence ceases. … That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.
pts-vp-pli3.15They don’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging to feeling … perception … choices … consciousness. As a result, relishing of consciousness ceases. When that relishing ceases, grasping ceases. … That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.
This is the ending of form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness.
Yes, I guess whether or not one can make sense of it depends on what one takes the nidanas to be.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:07 amThanks. That's basically describing the cessation of clinging and grasping.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:52 amThis sutta might be helpful: SN 22.05Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:35 am
That isn't what the DO suttas describe though. They describe a progressive cessation of all the nidanas, not just the cessation of ignorance.
And what is the ending of form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness?
It’s when a mendicant doesn’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging.
What don’t they approve, welcome, or keep clinging to? They don’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging to form. As a result, relishing of form ceases. When that relishing ceases, grasping ceases. When grasping ceases, continued existence ceases. … That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.
pts-vp-pli3.15They don’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging to feeling … perception … choices … consciousness. As a result, relishing of consciousness ceases. When that relishing ceases, grasping ceases. … That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.
This is the ending of form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness.
But the DO suttas describe ALL the nidanas ceasing. It's not a selective cessation of the "problem" nidanas like ignorance, craving, etc., it's ALL of them.
We can only go on how they're actually described, eg in SN12.2. Another difficulty is that the aggregates all appear in the nidanas, so presumably the aggregates would cease along with the nidanas. Or not?Sam Vara wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:25 amYes, I guess whether or not one can make sense of it depends on what one takes the nidanas to be.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:07 amThanks. That's basically describing the cessation of clinging and grasping.
But the DO suttas describe ALL the nidanas ceasing. It's not a selective cessation of the "problem" nidanas like ignorance, craving, etc., it's ALL of them.
Yes, I think they would all cease, but the cessation is to do with the clinging as per SN 22.05. If attempts to resolve contradictions don't "nail it", then either we need to accept that our understanding of basic ideas is awry, or write off the Buddha (at least as a represented literary figure) as too muddled to make sense.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:46 amWe can only go on how they're actually described, eg in SN12.2. Another difficulty is that the aggregates all appear in the nidanas, so presumably the aggregates would cease along with the nidanas. Or not?Sam Vara wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:25 amYes, I guess whether or not one can make sense of it depends on what one takes the nidanas to be.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:07 am
Thanks. That's basically describing the cessation of clinging and grasping.
But the DO suttas describe ALL the nidanas ceasing. It's not a selective cessation of the "problem" nidanas like ignorance, craving, etc., it's ALL of them.
I've seen various attempts to resolve these contradictions, but none that really nail it.
Contact with a candy bar leads to feeling pleasure
No. Nibbana is defined including calming of sankharas. Arahants continue to have mind-body, consciousness, contract, feeling, etc.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:35 am That isn't what the DO suttas describe though. They describe a progressive cessation of all the nidanas, not just the cessation of ignorance.
And what, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence; with the cessation of existence, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world.
“In dependence on the ear and sounds … … In dependence on the mind and mental phenomena, mind-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving comes cessation of clinging … cessation of existence … cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.44/en/bodhi
of course a lay person might stillcappuccino wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:39 pm Moral of the story?
Stop trying to enjoy candy bars
(Not worth it)
And which sutta describe ending ignorance is final according to dependent origination or its cessation ?
Tackling the question from another angle.SarathW wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:14 amTo me, this sounds like cessation of Upadana. (8th limb of Dependent Origination)It’s when a mendicant doesn’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging.
We have to work back like how you end Upadana. Ending Thanha end Upadana and so on up to ending of ignorance.
It does not matter where you start it will go to ending ignorance.
Perhaps wisdom is another word for NIrodha?
Ajahn Sucitto states: "Craving to be something is not a decision, it’s a reflex... So the result of craving to be solid and ongoing, to be a being that has a past and a future, together with the current wish to resolve the past and future, are combined to establish each individual’s present world as complex and unsteady. This thirst to be something keeps us reaching out for what isn’t here. And so we lose the inner balance that allows us to discern a here-and-now fulfillment in ourselves."
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/bhavatanha
Agree.If craving/tanha is the house-builder, craving has to cease.
So how do you cease ignorance?
Verse 153: I, who have been seeking the builder of this house (body), failing to attain Enlightenment (Bodhi nana or Sabbannuta nana) which would enable me to find him, have wandered through innumerable births in samsara. To be born again and again is, indeed, dukkha!
Verse 154: Oh house-builder! You are seen, you shall build no house (for me) again. All your rafters are broken, your roof-tree is destroyed. My mind has reached the unconditioned (i.e., Nibbana); the end of craving (Arahatta Phala) has been attained.
You end craving by practicing Satipathana.pegembara wrote: ↑Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:04 amSo how do you cease ignorance? Watch and don't succumb to tanha.
Verse 153: I, who have been seeking the builder of this house (body), failing to attain Enlightenment (Bodhi nana or Sabbannuta nana) which would enable me to find him, have wandered through innumerable births in samsara. To be born again and again is, indeed, dukkha!
Verse 154: Oh house-builder! You are seen, you shall build no house (for me) again. All your rafters are broken, your roof-tree is destroyed. My mind has reached the unconditioned (i.e., Nibbana); the end of craving (Arahatta Phala) has been attained.