What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

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SarathW
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Re: What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

Post by SarathW »

asahi wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:19 am If you say ending will stop lastly at ignorance , then where do you starts from in the beginning of your practice ? The arya path should have a point where you enter the path to announce your sotapannaship dividing path and fruit .
You can start the practice at any level of faith, Sila or Samadhi, etc.
But the final wisdom comes from ending ignorance.
So ending ignorance is the final cessation (Nirodha)
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Re: What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

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Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:52 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:35 am
DooDoot wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:26 am
Cessation is cessation of ignorance polluting Sankhara, Vinnana & Nama-Rupa.
That isn't what the DO suttas describe though. They describe a progressive cessation of all the nidanas, not just the cessation of ignorance.
This sutta might be helpful: SN 22.05
And what is the ending of form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness?

It’s when a mendicant doesn’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging.

What don’t they approve, welcome, or keep clinging to? They don’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging to form. As a result, relishing of form ceases. When that relishing ceases, grasping ceases. When grasping ceases, continued existence ceases. … That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.

pts-vp-pli3.15They don’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging to feeling … perception … choices … consciousness. As a result, relishing of consciousness ceases. When that relishing ceases, grasping ceases. … That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.

This is the ending of form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness.
Thanks. That's basically describing the cessation of clinging and grasping.
But the DO suttas describe ALL the nidanas ceasing. It's not a selective cessation of the "problem" nidanas like ignorance, craving, etc., it's ALL of them.
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Sam Vara
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Re: What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

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Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:07 am
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:52 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:35 am

That isn't what the DO suttas describe though. They describe a progressive cessation of all the nidanas, not just the cessation of ignorance.
This sutta might be helpful: SN 22.05
And what is the ending of form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness?

It’s when a mendicant doesn’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging.

What don’t they approve, welcome, or keep clinging to? They don’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging to form. As a result, relishing of form ceases. When that relishing ceases, grasping ceases. When grasping ceases, continued existence ceases. … That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.

pts-vp-pli3.15They don’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging to feeling … perception … choices … consciousness. As a result, relishing of consciousness ceases. When that relishing ceases, grasping ceases. … That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.

This is the ending of form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness.
Thanks. That's basically describing the cessation of clinging and grasping.
But the DO suttas describe ALL the nidanas ceasing. It's not a selective cessation of the "problem" nidanas like ignorance, craving, etc., it's ALL of them.
Yes, I guess whether or not one can make sense of it depends on what one takes the nidanas to be.
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Re: What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:25 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:07 am
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:52 am

This sutta might be helpful: SN 22.05

Thanks. That's basically describing the cessation of clinging and grasping.
But the DO suttas describe ALL the nidanas ceasing. It's not a selective cessation of the "problem" nidanas like ignorance, craving, etc., it's ALL of them.
Yes, I guess whether or not one can make sense of it depends on what one takes the nidanas to be.
We can only go on how they're actually described, eg in SN12.2. Another difficulty is that the aggregates all appear in the nidanas, so presumably the aggregates would cease along with the nidanas. Or not?

I've seen various attempts to resolve these contradictions, but none that really nail it.
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Sam Vara
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Re: What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

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Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:46 am
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:25 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:07 am

Thanks. That's basically describing the cessation of clinging and grasping.
But the DO suttas describe ALL the nidanas ceasing. It's not a selective cessation of the "problem" nidanas like ignorance, craving, etc., it's ALL of them.
Yes, I guess whether or not one can make sense of it depends on what one takes the nidanas to be.
We can only go on how they're actually described, eg in SN12.2. Another difficulty is that the aggregates all appear in the nidanas, so presumably the aggregates would cease along with the nidanas. Or not?

I've seen various attempts to resolve these contradictions, but none that really nail it.
Yes, I think they would all cease, but the cessation is to do with the clinging as per SN 22.05. If attempts to resolve contradictions don't "nail it", then either we need to accept that our understanding of basic ideas is awry, or write off the Buddha (at least as a represented literary figure) as too muddled to make sense.
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Re: What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

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asahi wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:19 am then where do you start from in the beginning of your practice?
Contact with a candy bar leads to feeling pleasure


Hence you want more, craving


Thus you are born (in order to enjoy candy bars)


Which includes death, stress, suffering
Last edited by cappuccino on Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

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Candy bars have led to your death & divorce & bankruptcy


Moral of the story?


Stop trying to enjoy candy bars


(Not worth it)
Last edited by cappuccino on Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

Post by DooDoot »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:35 am That isn't what the DO suttas describe though. They describe a progressive cessation of all the nidanas, not just the cessation of ignorance.
No. Nibbana is defined including calming of sankharas. Arahants continue to have mind-body, consciousness, contract, feeling, etc.
And what, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence; with the cessation of existence, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world.

“In dependence on the ear and sounds … … In dependence on the mind and mental phenomena, mind-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving comes cessation of clinging … cessation of existence … cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is the passing away of the world.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.44/en/bodhi
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Re: What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

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cappuccino wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:39 pm Moral of the story?

Stop trying to enjoy candy bars

(Not worth it)
of course a lay person might still

:shrug:
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Re: What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

Post by asahi »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:32 am
asahi wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:19 am If you say ending will stop lastly at ignorance , then where do you starts from in the beginning of your practice ? The arya path should have a point where you enter the path to announce your sotapannaship dividing path and fruit .
You can start the practice at any level of faith, Sila or Samadhi, etc.
But the final wisdom comes from ending ignorance.
So ending ignorance is the final cessation (Nirodha)
And which sutta describe ending ignorance is final according to dependent origination or its cessation ?
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Re: What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

Post by pegembara »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:14 am
It’s when a mendicant doesn’t approve, welcome, or keep clinging.
To me, this sounds like cessation of Upadana. (8th limb of Dependent Origination)
We have to work back like how you end Upadana. Ending Thanha end Upadana and so on up to ending of ignorance.
It does not matter where you start it will go to ending ignorance.
Perhaps wisdom is another word for NIrodha?
Tackling the question from another angle.
If craving/tanha is the house-builder, craving has to cease.

three types: kāma-taṇhā (wanting something), bhava-taṇhā (craving for continued existence), and vibhava-taṇhā (wanting to be rid of something)

"This is peace, this is exquisite — the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, cessation, Unbinding."
Ajahn Sucitto states: "Craving to be something is not a decision, it’s a reflex... So the result of craving to be solid and ongoing, to be a being that has a past and a future, together with the current wish to resolve the past and future, are combined to establish each individual’s present world as complex and unsteady. This thirst to be something keeps us reaching out for what isn’t here. And so we lose the inner balance that allows us to discern a here-and-now fulfillment in ourselves."

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/bhavatanha
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Re: What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

Post by SarathW »

If craving/tanha is the house-builder, craving has to cease.
Agree.
However, to cease craving you have to cease ignorance.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

Post by SteRo »

What exactly is the meaning of "meaning"?
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Re: What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

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SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:19 am
If craving/tanha is the house-builder, craving has to cease.
Agree.
However, to cease craving you have to cease ignorance.
So how do you cease ignorance?
The arahant would have no desire for anything left.
No kamatanha, vibhavatanha and bhavatanha.
So what's left? Activities that are not self-centred the so-called kiriya citta.
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/kiriya.htm
Verse 153: I, who have been seeking the builder of this house (body), failing to attain Enlightenment (Bodhi nana or Sabbannuta nana) which would enable me to find him, have wandered through innumerable births in samsara. To be born again and again is, indeed, dukkha!

Verse 154: Oh house-builder! You are seen, you shall build no house (for me) again. All your rafters are broken, your roof-tree is destroyed. My mind has reached the unconditioned (i.e., Nibbana); the end of craving (Arahatta Phala) has been attained.
Last edited by pegembara on Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
SarathW
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Re: What exactly the meaning of Nirodha in Buddhism?

Post by SarathW »

pegembara wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:04 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:19 am
If craving/tanha is the house-builder, craving has to cease.
Agree.
However, to cease craving you have to cease ignorance.
So how do you cease ignorance? Watch and don't succumb to tanha.
Verse 153: I, who have been seeking the builder of this house (body), failing to attain Enlightenment (Bodhi nana or Sabbannuta nana) which would enable me to find him, have wandered through innumerable births in samsara. To be born again and again is, indeed, dukkha!

Verse 154: Oh house-builder! You are seen, you shall build no house (for me) again. All your rafters are broken, your roof-tree is destroyed. My mind has reached the unconditioned (i.e., Nibbana); the end of craving (Arahatta Phala) has been attained.
You end craving by practicing Satipathana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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