Nāgārjuna and Momentariness

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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confusedlayman
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Re: Nāgārjuna and Momentariness

Post by confusedlayman »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:32 am
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:15 am why care about momentariness ? all u need to care is if u are still fabrication thoughts based on ignorance or not ...
I assume it's meant as a way of developing an insight into anicca, though IMO it's sufficient to notice how quickly the mind changes, or how quickly attention switches between various objects. And over longer time scales you can notice the bodily changes due to illness and/or ageing.
if u see change then u dont think as inherent object so there is good legal reason to stop thinking otherwise
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Nāgārjuna and Momentariness

Post by Coëmgenu »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:22 am
Aloka wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:13 am
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:00 am
You live & learn 😃
If one looks at chapter 15 of the Mulamadhyamakakarika, it becomes evident that Nagarjuna must have had access to Sutta SN 12.15 in the Pali Canon - and that "Katyayana" is another version of "Kaccānagotta "
It is an untraced parallel cited in the MMK and with a longer citation in the Madhyamakaśāstra. The version cited in there (which is or is not the version of the sect that Ven Nāgārjuna came from) also has a section about Right View that includes the phrase "separate from existence, separate from non-existence."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Nāgārjuna and Momentariness

Post by Coëmgenu »

In the Madhyamakaśāstra, the citation appears as 刪陀迦旃延經.

刪陀 --> unknown word(s) pronounced like *ʃˠan and *dɑ
迦旃延 --> kātyāyana (lit. "ka tjan lan")
經 --> sūtra

Maybe 刪陀 is something like "Saṇḍa." Who knows? The document was likely translated from a Central Asian language, maybe Gāndhārī Prākrit, so once again, who knows?
mikenz66 wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:22 amNotably,
mikenz66 wrote: Sat May 07, 2016 12:51 am Here is Sylvester's other point: That the Chinese and Sanskrit ("Northern") versions lost the
“‘All exists’: Kaccana, this is one extreme. ‘All does not exist’: this is the second extreme.
part of SN21.15, and therefore misinterpreted what the "middle way" was referring to:
Sylvester wrote: However, the loss of the "The All exists"and "The All does not exist" passages proved particularly acute for the Northern Buddhists, as their sutra became dislocated from the pre-Buddhist context.
The only problem with this is that the version that Ven Nāgārjuna cites actually has this section, so we know that he wasn't citing the extant Sarvāstivādin recensions. Also, the Sarvāstivādin canons in Chinese translation are not complete, so they are missing sūtras that the Sarvāstivādins could have had historically.
mikenz66 wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:25 amI certainly respect Ajahn Amaro, but when that article was written (over ten years ago, I believe) he may not have been aware of the differences between SN12.15 and the Northern agama's that Nagarjuna was most probably familiar with. It's interesting that a key difference is that absence of the part he quotes in the Northern versions.
We can't assume that Ven Nāgārjuna would necessarily use the Sarvāstivādin recensions of the sutras, and indeed judging by the text content of the MMK it appears that he cites a different version than what we have preserved from them in Chinese.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Nāgārjuna and Momentariness

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:34 am
Very interesting. Are there any clues as to which school the sutra he used belongs to?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Nāgārjuna and Momentariness

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:24 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:34 am
Very interesting. Are there any clues as to which school the sutra he used belongs to?
I don't think the quotation is long enough or distinct enough to determine that. The Sanskrit simply makes reference to "Kātyāyanavavāda," and the Madhyamakaśāstra's unknown transliterated word gives no clues.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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mikenz66
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Re: Nāgārjuna and Momentariness

Post by mikenz66 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:18 am
mikenz66 wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:22 am
Aloka wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:13 am

If one looks at chapter 15 of the Mulamadhyamakakarika, it becomes evident that Nagarjuna must have had access to Sutta SN 12.15 in the Pali Canon - and that "Katyayana" is another version of "Kaccānagotta "
It is an untraced parallel cited in the MMK and with a longer citation in the Madhyamakaśāstra. The version cited in there (which is or is not the version of the sect that Ven Nāgārjuna came from) also has a section about Right View that includes the phrase "separate from existence, separate from non-existence."
That's interesting. Do you take that phrase to be equivalent to:
“‘All exists’: Kaccana, this is one extreme. ‘All does not exist’: this is the second extreme." ?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Nāgārjuna and Momentariness

Post by Coëmgenu »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:49 pmDo you take that phrase to be equivalent to:
“‘All exists’: Kaccana, this is one extreme. ‘All does not exist’: this is the second extreme." ?
Root text:
佛能滅 --> the Buddha can end
有無 --> existence and nonexistence
如 --> like
化 --> he taught
迦旃延 --> Kātyāyana
經中之所說 --> that of which was spoken in the sūtra
離有 --> separate from existence
亦 --> also
離無 --> separate from nonexistence

Commentary:
刪陀迦旃延經中 --> within the *ʃˠandɑ Kātyāyanasūtra
佛為說正見義 --> the Buddha spoke of right view as
離有離無 --> separate from existence and separate from nonexistence

It's difficult because we can't be sure that Ven Vimalākṣa is quoting or paraphrasing. Also, we can't be sure if a direct quotation from Ven Vimalākṣa in whatever language he wrote it in is being hidden by a dynamic translation from Ven Kumārajīva. The transliterated mysterious word before "Kātyāyana" in the commentary is the biggest humdinger. Ven Vimalākṣa's sūtras could also be a different recension than that which Ven Nāgārjuna worked with. It's possible.

MMK XXV.24 and numerous other places are sufficiently divergent between the Chinese and translations from the Sanskrit that I am personally not sure if the Chinese MMK is the completely same text as the Sanskrit/Tibetan MMKs, but that is something that AFAIK "only I" am not sure of.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Nāgārjuna and Momentariness

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:24 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:34 am
Very interesting. Are there any clues as to which school the sutra he used belongs to?
A growing trend that I just found out about is to consider Ven Nāgārjuna a dissident member of the Saṃmitīya sect who rejects the doctrines of his own school. I've not yet read the literature myself that argues this. It was Malcolm on the dark side of the wheel who informed me of this. Both sides are dark and full of shade, in case anyone was wondering.

A strange potential point of corroboration is that the interlocutor in the Madhyamakaśāstra is a Saṃmitīya. Ven Nāgārjuna's exegesis of pratītyasamutpāda in the Pratītyasamutpādahṛdaya is apparently very similar to the general Saṃmitīya exegesis. The idea seems to be that he could critique Saṃmitīya Ābhidharmika Buddhism from an insider's perspective. I'll link some papers in a bit.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Nāgārjuna and Momentariness

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:26 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:24 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:34 am
Very interesting. Are there any clues as to which school the sutra he used belongs to?
A growing trend that I just found out about is to consider Ven Nāgārjuna a dissident member of the Saṃmitīya sect who rejects the doctrines of his own school. I've not yet read the literature myself that argues this. It was Malcolm on the dark side of the wheel who informed me of this. Both sides are dark and full of shade, in case anyone was wondering.

A strange potential point of corroboration is that the interlocutor in the Madhyamakaśāstra is a Saṃmitīya. Ven Nāgārjuna's exegesis of pratītyasamutpāda in the Pratītyasamutpādahṛdaya is apparently very similar to the general Saṃmitīya exegesis. The idea seems to be that he could critique Saṃmitīya Ābhidharmika Buddhism from an insider's perspective. I'll link some papers in a bit.
I’d be interested to read those. Thanks.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
josaphatbarlaam
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Re: Nāgārjuna and Momentariness

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

Nagarjuna's sanity only existed for a moment and no more.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Nāgārjuna and Momentariness

Post by Coëmgenu »

:zzz:
So edgy.
:coffee:
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Ontheway
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Re: Nāgārjuna and Momentariness

Post by Ontheway »

josaphatbarlaam wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:57 am Nagarjuna's sanity only existed for a moment and no more.
A good one.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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