Do secular Buddhists have the right view?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SarathW
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Re: Do secular Buddhists have the right view?

Post by SarathW »

If one practices the Dhamma, one leads a blameless life in the here-and-now. Even if the afterlife and karmic results do not exist, one has not lost the wager, for the blamelessness of one's life is a reward in and of itself. If there is an afterlife with karmic results, then one has won a double reward: the blamelessness of one's life here and now, and the good rewards of one's actions in the afterlife. These two pragmatic arguments form the central message of this sutta.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

It appears that secular Buddhists are using the Apannaks Sutta to justify their teaching.
That can be used to reject rebirth, Kamma Vipaka etc.
However, I believe that they still requires to follow the basic five precepts and the Noble Eightfold Path etc.
Doug Smith said that the secular Buddhist follow the Noble Eightfold Path.
But I am not sure how they do it without right view.
:shrug:
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sunnat
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Re: Re:

Post by sunnat »

sunnat wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:43 pm
sunnat wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:29 pm Synonyms for secular includes 'wordly' , 'lay'.

A lay buddhist is on a path from ignorance to wisdom and a quality to develop is honesty.

To say one knows something when one does not is to lie. To lie is to walk in the wrong direction.

One can only truly know something when one has personally, directly perceived (or experienced) it.

The Buddha taught a path. By walking that path one progresses from ignorance to wisdom.

At what point on walking the path does one become a 'real buddhist'?

Was The Buddha a 'buddhist'. (before or after becoming enlightened).
In other words, is someone who is trying to follow the instructions of The Blessed One, but has not yet come to know things that The Fully Awakened Ones know, a buddhist (remembering that the lay can be said to be secular) or is there some neglected rituals involved that bestows upon one the Right to be considered a True Buddhist?
Also, did the pre enlightenment buddha 'follow right view'?
SarathW
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Re: Do secular Buddhists have the right view?

Post by SarathW »

In the following video, he discusses the consumption of alcohol.
In his opinion, it is the right action.
My understanding of consuming alcohol is the wrong view.

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Spiny Norman
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Re: Do secular Buddhists have the right view?

Post by Spiny Norman »

DNS wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:06 am
SarathW wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:49 am What exactly the reason why a secular Buddhist is not an average Buddhist?
Do they completely reject the re-birth and Kamma Vipaka or they leave it aside as it is can not be tested empirically?
Do they believe in Nibbana?
Are there many variations in secular Buddhist?
I think some reject rebirth and kamma-vipaka outright and even claim the Buddha never taught it. When confronted with Suttas to the contrary, they say the translations are wrong. These are secular Buddhists, not the regular type that follow the religion of Buddhism.

Others who just put it aside for now, not sure or don't feel they have any evidence for it, could still be Buddhists, just remaining a little skeptical until they receive more insight.
By that measure there are quite a few secular Buddhists on this forum, though they wouldn't self-identify as such. People who insist that the realms are just states of mind, people who insist that rebirth is either a mistranslation or an inferior teaching for ignorant puthjana, that kind of thing.
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DNS
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Re: Do secular Buddhists have the right view?

Post by DNS »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:33 am By that measure there are quite a few secular Buddhists on this forum, though they wouldn't self-identify as such. People who insist that the realms are just states of mind, people who insist that rebirth is either a mistranslation or an inferior teaching for ignorant puthjana, that kind of thing.
Yes, probably so. In my opinion, one should at least accept rebirth among the human and animal realms (as a Buddhist). After all, we can literally see that animals do exist and experience pain, pleasure, suffering, etc. And then one could remain agnostic about other realms (deva, hell) or see them as mental states, but certainly animals do exist and if kamma-vipaka is true (hint: it is), then they experience samsara too (imo).
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Re: Do secular Buddhists have the right view?

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DNS wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 3:32 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:33 am By that measure there are quite a few secular Buddhists on this forum, though they wouldn't self-identify as such. People who insist that the realms are just states of mind, people who insist that rebirth is either a mistranslation or an inferior teaching for ignorant puthjana, that kind of thing.
Yes, probably so. In my opinion, one should at least accept rebirth among the human and animal realms (as a Buddhist). After all, we can literally see that animals do exist and experience pain, pleasure, suffering, etc. And then one could remain agnostic about other realms (deva, hell) or see them as mental states, but certainly animals do exist and if kamma-vipaka is true (hint: it is), then they experience samsara too (imo).
I don't have a strong view either way, except to observe that secular Buddhists would probably feel more at home at Dhamma Wheel than at Dharma Wheel.
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Re: Do secular Buddhists have the right view?

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Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:15 pm I don't have a strong view either way, except to observe that secular Buddhists would probably feel more at home at Dhamma Wheel than at Dharma Wheel.
I've noticed that too. I think it could be drawn from two things, in general:
1. Theravada/Vipassana tends to have less rituals (or at least less emphasis) than Mahayana.
2. Bodhisattva vows in Mahayana, where one vows to be reborn innumerable times to help innumerable sentient beings (therefore, not accepting/believing in rebirth would be a non-starter).
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Re: Do secular Buddhists have the right view?

Post by SteRo »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:15 pm I don't have a strong view either way, except to observe that secular Buddhists would probably feel more at home at Dhamma Wheel than at Dharma Wheel.
I think that only has to do with the moderators' policy. Though theravada and mahayana are equally dogmatist the moderators' policy on the two sites seem to be different in terms of forcing their dogmatism on users.
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Re: Do secular Buddhists have the right view?

Post by mikenz66 »

DNS wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 7:54 pm 1. Theravada/Vipassana tends to have less rituals (or at least less emphasis) than Mahayana. ...
There are plenty of rituals in Theravada monasteries... :tongue:

I think it has to do with the secular way a lot of people here come to the Dhamma. There's a whole different vibe in traditional, monastic-oriented settings with lifelong practitioners.

I've also come across (western trained) Zen people who are stridently secular. Just because they sometimes dress up in robes and arrange their mats carefully doesn't necessarily make them particularly ritualistic or traditional.

Not that one way or an other is necessarily "right", but who you hang out with will obviously have a big influence on world view.

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SarathW
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Re: Do secular Buddhists have the right view?

Post by SarathW »

I just wonder why someone wants to declare oneself as a secular Buddhist. :thinking:
There are many normal Buddhists who do not believe in Kamma Vipaka or rebirth etc.
What is the book followed by the Secular Buddhists?
If it is Tipitaka, are they going to re-write Tipitaka excluding Kamma Vipaka and rebirth, etc?
Are we going to see a Sangha linage of Secular Buddhists in the future?
Is there some sort of hidden agenda?

Why do they want to claim themselves when they can call themselves Secular Christians?
I thought secular Christians are more like Secular Buddhists any way?
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Sam Vara
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Re: Do secular Buddhists have the right view?

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SarathW wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:32 am I just wonder why someone wants to declare oneself as a secular Buddhist. :thinking:
There are many normal Buddhists who do not believe in Kamma Vipaka or rebirth etc.
What is the book followed by the Secular Buddhists?
If it is Tipitaka, are they going to re-write Tipitaka excluding Kamma Vipaka and rebirth, etc?
Are we going to see a Sangha linage of Secular Buddhists in the future?
Is there some sort of hidden agenda?

Why do they want to claim themselves when they can call themselves Secular Christians?
I thought secular Christians are more like Secular Buddhists any way?
There are lots of benefits if you are a western "secular buddhist". In some circles, it has high status, having just the right balance of interesting exoticism and intelligent common sense. It means you probably meditate, which is cool. But it also sends out the message that you think for yourself, are not beholden to a particular tradition, and won't cause problems or embarrassment by talking about gods or supernatural stuff. It's a good marketing strategy, both in the sense of having something like books or retreats to sell, and also in how you present yourself to others as a potential friend or partner.

What's not to like? ;)
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mikenz66
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Re: Do secular Buddhists have the right view?

Post by mikenz66 »

Here are some interesting blog posts by Christopher Titmus, who might be mistaken for a Secular Buddhist if you didn't pay attention.
Secular Buddhism. – Has a new Buddhist sect been formed in the West?
Does religion, secularism and spirituality neglect transcendent realisations?
12 Reasons why I am not a secular Buddhist
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SarathW
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Re: Do secular Buddhists have the right view?

Post by SarathW »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:36 am Here are some interesting blog posts by Christopher Titmus, who might be mistaken for a Secular Buddhist if you didn't pay attention.
Secular Buddhism. – Has a new Buddhist sect been formed in the West?
Does religion, secularism and spirituality neglect transcendent realisations?
12 Reasons why I am not a secular Buddhist
:heart:
Mike
Thanks Mike.
How old this secular Buddhism idea and who is the teacher?
By identifying with secular Buddhism, the followers of this branch of Buddhism will feel a gap from those who love and appreciate the religious life of Buddhism. Such devotees of traditional Buddhism, East and West, enjoy chanting, mantras, guru devotion, prostrations, visualisations, merit making, offerings, use of the triple refuge to become a Buddhist and heartfelt support of the religion and monasticism. Many of these expressions of traditional Buddhism are not my cup of tea either but why appear to form a Buddhist sect to distance oneself and encourage others to do the same?
In my opinion, all these rituals come to Secular Buddhism as well.
I already see the Guru worship. (Stephen Batchelor) I do not surprise if the followers worship him after his death.
Supporting the teachers in way of gifts is already there.
Any organisation eventually turns into Guru worship and rituals.
Don't they have their own logo?
:mrgreen:
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Re: Do secular Buddhists have the right view?

Post by DNS »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:32 am I just wonder why someone wants to declare oneself as a secular Buddhist. :thinking:
Didn't you say, only a few days ago:
SarathW wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:49 am I am a kind of a secular Buddhist I think in a way.
I do not believe in straight re-birth or the Kamma Vipaka.
SarathW wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:50 am At this stage I like to be a Theravada secular Buddhist. :tongue:
So which is it? I can't keep track of which tradition you follow, it changes by the day, from General Theravada to Classical Theravada to Secular Buddhism.
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Re: Do secular Buddhists have the right view?

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Sam Vara wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:45 am There are lots of benefits if you are a western "secular buddhist". In some circles, it has high status, having just the right balance of interesting exoticism and intelligent common sense. It means you probably meditate, which is cool. But it also sends out the message that you think for yourself, are not beholden to a particular tradition, and won't cause problems or embarrassment by talking about gods or supernatural stuff. It's a good marketing strategy, both in the sense of having something like books or retreats to sell, and also in how you present yourself to others as a potential friend or partner.

What's not to like? ;)
Well said. It's not my cup of tea, but I think what you wrote explains why many do take this position. Especially social science and comparative religion professors, who like to give the appearance of being objective, not biased, at most will call themselves a secular Buddhist rather than a specific Buddhist tradition (for those that like Buddhist teachings).

And then there are the many who don't want the dreaded "R" word (religion) or labels. I give them the label of "those who don't like labels" (which is another label / designation anyway. :tongue: Or the famous "spiritual, but not religious."
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