Consciousness doesnt exists

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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asahi
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Consciousness doesnt exists

Post by asahi »

In this video he said the sky doesnt exists in actuality but due to certain conditioning and this is comparable to consciousness which is also inexistence . In other words what we are looking at but are mirage .
Therefore the five aggregates are not self and inexistence .
:roll:


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SteRo
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Re: Consciousness doesnt exists

Post by SteRo »

Sure consciousness does not exist and is not inexistent and isn't both and isn't neither.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Consciousness doesnt exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

I need a facepalm emoticon.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Consciousness doesnt exists

Post by Sam Vara »

Daniel Dennett could have used this clip to illustrate the meaning of "deepity".

Consciousness is not an object of consciousness, but that does not mean it doesn't exist. Of course you can't see or touch consciousness, Eckhart, but without it you couldn't see or touch anything.

And is that really meant to be a live audience on the soundtrack? Sounds canned to me. Or it would do, if there were such a thing as consciousness. :toilet:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Consciousness doesnt exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Almost as bad as eliminative materialism.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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DNS
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Re: Consciousness doesnt exists

Post by DNS »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:28 pm I need a facepalm emoticon.
:lol:
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:44 pm Almost as bad as eliminative materialism.
woo woo, run amok.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Consciousness doesnt exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

I should clarify that my facepalm was not in relation to the OP.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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DNS
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Re: Consciousness doesnt exists

Post by DNS »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:38 pm I should clarify that my facepalm was not in relation to the OP.
Okay, thanks for the clarification. Still good. :tongue:
form
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Re: Consciousness doesnt exists

Post by form »

He is trying to express consciousness is conditional, impermanent, a form of suffering and non self. :mrgreen:
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DooDoot
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Re: Consciousness doesnt exists

Post by DooDoot »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:43 pm Consciousness is not an object of consciousness, but that does not mean it doesn't exist.
If consciousness is not an object of consciousness, how can consciousness be known to exist as an aggregate or element? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Consciousness doesnt exists

Post by Sam Vara »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:14 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:43 pm Consciousness is not an object of consciousness, but that does not mean it doesn't exist.
If consciousness is not an object of consciousness, how can consciousness be known to exist as an aggregate or element? :shrug:
As the precondition for knowing anything.
SteRo
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Re: Consciousness doesnt exists

Post by SteRo »

SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:22 pm Sure consciousness does not exist and is not inexistent and isn't both and isn't neither.
Having said that what this phenomenon advocates can't be the same. Why? Because its giving a lecture reveals that it conceives of having something to tell or to teach. So if it really would be the sphere of "consciousness being like clear sky" and "unfindable" then what is following what through giving this lecture, taking an audience to be true and feeling thoughts to be worthy of being expressed? Is this non-findable clear sky not apprehending itself? Seems to be non-findable clear sky grasping itself and this self-grasping (self-apprehension) then being the basis for the arising of the experience of personal self ('I and the audience').
What has been said here is just conditioned thoughts happening. Thus these expressions are not true, not not true, nor both, nor neither. Although irrelevant it's fun nevertheless ... like jogging or similar activities.
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ronnymarsh
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Re: Consciousness doesnt exists

Post by ronnymarsh »

Consciousness means "being aware". The Western term is derived from the Latin "consciens", which is the present participle of "consciere" [con = "with"; sciere = "knowledge"].
The term used in Buddhism is "viññana", which literally means "knowledge", but which indicates precisely the same as the Latin term.

Consciousness is first and foremost a circumstance, not a tangible "something". When using the verb "exist" for a circumstance, it must obviously be expressed in the affirmative if the conditions for those are found to be true.

In Buddhism, consciousness arises from a process that begins with the contact between a functional sense organ and an external or internal object. When there is contact, a sensation arises from it, then a perception, a volition and finally an awareness.

As long as there was contact, there is awareness.

Thus, to determine whether consciousness exists or not, it is necessary to verify, in terms of true or false, the conditions for its existence.

Is there contact between the subject of sense and the object of sense?

If yes, then there is!
If not, then it doesn't exist!

Thus, it is not possible to state categorically that consciousness does not exist. Just as it is not possible to categorically affirm that consciousness exists. This is the meaning of "anatta".

When someone categorically states that consciousness exists, then it must ALWAYS exist, there is not a moment when it does not exist, and so there is no room for change. This statement corresponds to the teaching of "atta".

But when someone categorically states that consciousness DOES NOT exist, then it must ALWAYS "not exist", there must not be any time when it exists, that is, likewise there is no room for change. Thus, even denying the reality of the previous "atta", this is a statement that also corresponds to a teaching of "atta".

The key word for understanding the unique position of Buddhism is: "it depends".

Things do not exist when the conditions for their existence do not exist, but they do exist when the conditions exist. This is "anatta".

The simple denial of an "atta" is not "anatta". Annihilationists, like Buddhism, denied the existence of the "atta" that the Brahmans claimed. However, the type of denial they did was so radical that at the same time they denied they ended up affirming another Eternal reality, that is, a new type of "atta", different from what the Brahmans taught, but still a "atta".

In Buddhism, the existence or non-existence of something is only possible by analyzing the condition for existence. This means that Buddhism can never give a categorical answer to any such question, it is always asked in conditional terms.

For example: Do I exist?
If there are conditions to maintain existence, then I exist, when those conditions no longer exist, I don't exist.
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