Disputes and your solutions for resolution.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Zenny
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Re: Disputes and your solutions for resolution.

Post by Zenny »

SteRo wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:15 pm
Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:46 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:35 pm ...
With that, I'll bow out of this conversation. :anjali:
So what was the point of discussing in the first place?
A cop out.
Sam Vara doesn't seem to enjoy conversation with you the way I enjoy it. :lol:
I'm not for the meek.
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SDC
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Re: Disputes and your solutions for resolution.

Post by SDC »

Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:28 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:15 pm
Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:46 pm
So what was the point of discussing in the first place?
A cop out.
Sam Vara doesn't seem to enjoy conversation with you the way I enjoy it. :lol:
I'm not for the meek.
Indeed……you’re for the bored. :tongue:

SteRo is a technician btw. Don’t ever assume you have a leg up on him. He’s literally all around you…like a sphere. Impossible to troll. You’ve been warned.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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one_awakening
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Re: Disputes and your solutions for resolution.

Post by one_awakening »

A thread about resolving disputes results in disputes
“You only lose what you cling to”
Zenny
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Re: Disputes and your solutions for resolution.

Post by Zenny »

Fear and doubt make people dispute about even obvious matters.
Disputing and pointing out clear wrongs are two wholly different things.
Pointing out wrong is done from a position of certainty and strength.
Defending clear falsehood is done from fear.
It's relatively easy to spot a discussion from fear and a discussion from strength.
Last edited by Zenny on Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SteRo
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Re: Disputes and your solutions for resolution.

Post by SteRo »

Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:24 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:06 pm
Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:19 pm

Well science does deal in falsehoods and truths,you obviously didn't get the memo.
So what? Every system of thought (aka "theory") deals with truth vs falshood.
Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:19 pm If you actually thought about it,science is a religion,but I doubt your ready for that level of depth.
Science might be grasped like a religion, yes, but it isn't a religion because it deals with the material and does not engage in metaphysical speculations like religions do.
Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:19 pm Is harm a thing? How do you judge harm in your theory of suspending judgement?
If someone believes in a religion and/or in religious speculative tenets then that may be potentially harmful (e.g. causing fear, agitation, self-hate and the like).
Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:19 pm Everybody is able to change material conditions,a coal miner and
a binman do so as well.
Yes but consider automobiles, computers, and the like ... these are manipulations of material appearance that could only be performed by science.

Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:19 pm What is it that originates with you if your thoughts are not yours?
Cannot understand this question.
So you finally admit you follow a system which deals in true and false.
Not having a theory and not following a system of thought your words don't apply.
Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:24 pm Science causes harm as well,witness the current confusion on vaccinations plus the weapons industry.
Science does not cause harm. "confusion" is not science but a mental phenomenon.
Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:24 pm Science deals in metaphysics,its only subpar scientists who don't understand this.
Science has nothing to do with metaphysics as it has nothing to do with religion because it merely relies on observation. However you have to differentiate between science on the one hand and particular scientists or believers in science or abusers of science on the other hand.
Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:24 pm You claim your thoughts don't originates from you.
So what is it that does originates from you? What Is original from you? Or you just followed scientists blindly.
Not claiming anything but merely expressing thoughts that happen to me your words don't apply.
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Jack19990101
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Re: Disputes and your solutions for resolution.

Post by Jack19990101 »

Most of the arguments are about how to label an certain experience. Not much essence in them.
Zenny
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Re: Disputes and your solutions for resolution.

Post by Zenny »

SteRo wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:25 am
Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:24 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:06 pm
So what? Every system of thought (aka "theory") deals with truth vs falshood.


Science might be grasped like a religion, yes, but it isn't a religion because it deals with the material and does not engage in metaphysical speculations like religions do.


If someone believes in a religion and/or in religious speculative tenets then that may be potentially harmful (e.g. causing fear, agitation, self-hate and the like).


Yes but consider automobiles, computers, and the like ... these are manipulations of material appearance that could only be performed by science.



Cannot understand this question.
So you finally admit you follow a system which deals in true and false.
Not having a theory and not following a system of thought your words don't apply.
Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:24 pm Science causes harm as well,witness the current confusion on vaccinations plus the weapons industry.
Science does not cause harm. "confusion" is not science but a mental phenomenon.
Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:24 pm Science deals in metaphysics,its only subpar scientists who don't understand this.
Science has nothing to do with metaphysics as it has nothing to do with religion because it merely relies on observation. However you have to differentiate between science on the one hand and particular scientists or believers in science or abusers of science on the other hand.
Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:24 pm You claim your thoughts don't originates from you.
So what is it that does originates from you? What Is original from you? Or you just followed scientists blindly.
Not claiming anything but merely expressing thoughts that happen to me your words don't apply.
Science is a mental phenomenon. And a belief system. How bizarre and incoherent you think Otherwise!
Metaphysics is not just religion. Science is based on assumptions and metaphysics. Its instructive you don't seem aware of this.
You are claiming plenty from your belief system.
Your thoughts don't all happen to you. Some of them you express deliberately. Like in your posts.
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SteRo
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Re: Disputes and your solutions for resolution.

Post by SteRo »

Zenny wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:27 pm
SteRo wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:25 am
Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:24 pm
So you finally admit you follow a system which deals in true and false.
Not having a theory and not following a system of thought your words don't apply.
Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:24 pm Science causes harm as well,witness the current confusion on vaccinations plus the weapons industry.
Science does not cause harm. "confusion" is not science but a mental phenomenon.
Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:24 pm Science deals in metaphysics,its only subpar scientists who don't understand this.
Science has nothing to do with metaphysics as it has nothing to do with religion because it merely relies on observation. However you have to differentiate between science on the one hand and particular scientists or believers in science or abusers of science on the other hand.
Zenny wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:24 pm You claim your thoughts don't originates from you.
So what is it that does originates from you? What Is original from you? Or you just followed scientists blindly.
Not claiming anything but merely expressing thoughts that happen to me your words don't apply.
Science is a mental phenomenon. And a belief system. How bizarre and incoherent you think Otherwise!
Science as system of thought is a mental phenomenon, yes, but it isn't necessarily a belief system.
If the expressions of the thoughts that happen to me appear "bizarre and incoherent" to you then these appearances also are a mental phenomena which may be believed by you or not.
But I don't want to further converse about all the countless thought associations in the context of the concept "science" that may happen to us depending on earlier conditionings. Since there is no criterion for truth no truth can be found in either "science" or all the countless thought associations in the context of the concept "science" that may happen to us. Nevertheless I appreciate the progress science has brought about although no truth can be found in it.
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Pondera
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Re: Disputes and your solutions for resolution.

Post by Pondera »

Zenny wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:53 am Fear and doubt make people dispute about even obvious matters.
A lot of people are most afraid of how they’ll be judged. For a lot of people the ego is easily bruised.

One benefit of practice is gratitude. By gratitude we overcome the ego.

Without it we are still children colouring pictures for mommy to look at and put on the fridge.

For some, that colouring is the extent of their meditation and their insight. And for some, that is what they are waiting for others to praise.

But - it’s like that at the beginning for everyone. Luckily one may reach a stage in meditation where they no longer need others as a source of confirmation, praise, acknowledgement, “intellectual erections”.
Disputing and pointing out clear wrongs are two wholly different things.
Pointing out wrong is done from a position of certainty and strength.
I see no wrong with Buddha Dhamma. For a collection of words and sayings that cover volumes and volumes of pages, it is quite interesting to note that it has fewer internal contradictions than the whole of the New Testament (a body of words and sayings that can be read in a few days).
Defending clear falsehood is done from fear.
It's relatively easy to spot a discussion from fear and a discussion from strength.
Are you implying a certain falsehood in the Buddha Dhamma?

Is it the teaching of annica? I see no problem with how the Buddha formulated this teaching or the respective purpose it serves in meditative achievement.

Aren’t you some kind of Zen practitioner? Do you find Self in that “zero” you attempt to anchor your mind to?
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
Zenny
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Re: Disputes and your solutions for resolution.

Post by Zenny »

SteRo wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:47 am
Zenny wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:27 pm
SteRo wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:25 am
Not having a theory and not following a system of thought your words don't apply.


Science does not cause harm. "confusion" is not science but a mental phenomenon.


Science has nothing to do with metaphysics as it has nothing to do with religion because it merely relies on observation. However you have to differentiate between science on the one hand and particular scientists or believers in science or abusers of science on the other hand.


Not claiming anything but merely expressing thoughts that happen to me your words don't apply.
Science is a mental phenomenon. And a belief system. How bizarre and incoherent you think Otherwise!
Science as system of thought is a mental phenomenon, yes, but it isn't necessarily a belief system.
If the expressions of the thoughts that happen to me appear "bizarre and incoherent" to you then these appearances also are a mental phenomena which may be believed by you or not.
But I don't want to further converse about all the countless thought associations in the context of the concept "science" that may happen to us depending on earlier conditionings. Since there is no criterion for truth no truth can be found in either "science" or all the countless thought associations in the context of the concept "science" that may happen to us. Nevertheless I appreciate the progress science has brought about although no truth can be found in it.
Science is a belief system. Only the unaware think otherwise.
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SteRo
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Re: Disputes and your solutions for resolution.

Post by SteRo »

Zenny wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:57 pm
SteRo wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:47 am
Zenny wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:27 pm

Science is a mental phenomenon. And a belief system. How bizarre and incoherent you think Otherwise!
Science as system of thought is a mental phenomenon, yes, but it isn't necessarily a belief system.
If the expressions of the thoughts that happen to me appear "bizarre and incoherent" to you then these appearances also are a mental phenomena which may be believed by you or not.
But I don't want to further converse about all the countless thought associations in the context of the concept "science" that may happen to us depending on earlier conditionings. Since there is no criterion for truth no truth can be found in either "science" or all the countless thought associations in the context of the concept "science" that may happen to us. Nevertheless I appreciate the progress science has brought about although no truth can be found in it.
Science is a belief system. Only the unaware think otherwise.
For some science may be a belief system. For me it's just a system of verbal expression.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Disputes and your solutions for resolution.

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pondera wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:25 amAren’t you some kind of Zen practitioner? Do you find Self in that “zero” you attempt to anchor your mind to?
A lot of Zen Buddhists attempt to anchor their mind to "their true self," not "zero."
Mahākāśyapa Bodhisattva asked the Buddha to speak, saying, "O, Lord, from now I commence in obtaining right view. Lord, until now, we all entirely abided in wrong view. Lord, in the twenty-five existences, is there no ātman?"

The Buddha said: "O, noble son, 'the ātman,' truly, is 'the tathāgatagarbha' in its meaning. All sentient beings have the buddhadhātu and, truly, 'the ātman' is its meaning. Thus so, the ātman's meaning is, from root towards end, constantly covered under kleśas without limit. Therefore, sentient beings cannot obtain sight of it [...]"
(T374.407b6 Parinirvāṇasūtra)

This is what many Zenners are trying to yoke themselves to. Their "true self," which is rhetorically the "womb" or "matrix" (garbha) that brings forth the Tathāgata. This isn't "my kind" of Buddhism, but I'm vaguely familiar with it.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Zenny
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Re: Disputes and your solutions for resolution.

Post by Zenny »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:18 pm
Pondera wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:25 amAren’t you some kind of Zen practitioner? Do you find Self in that “zero” you attempt to anchor your mind to?
A lot of Zen Buddhists attempt to anchor their mind to "their true self," not "zero."
Mahākāśyapa Bodhisattva asked the Buddha to speak, saying, "O, Lord, from now I commence in obtaining right view. Lord, until now, we all entirely abided in wrong view. Lord, in the twenty-five existences, is there no ātman?"

The Buddha said: "O, noble son, 'the ātman,' truly, is 'the tathāgatagarbha' in its meaning. All sentient beings have the buddhadhātu and, truly, 'the ātman' is its meaning. Thus so, the ātman's meaning is, from root towards end, constantly covered under kleśas without limit. Therefore, sentient beings cannot obtain sight of it [...]"
(T374.407b6 Parinirvāṇasūtra)

This is what many Zenners are trying to yoke themselves to. Their "true self," which is rhetorically the "womb" or "matrix" (garbha) that brings forth the Tathāgata. This isn't "my kind" of Buddhism, but I'm vaguely familiar with it.
Though that's not quite how I roll,at least you have some understanding of the higher zen.
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Zenny
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Re: Disputes and your solutions for resolution.

Post by Zenny »

Pondera wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:25 am
Zenny wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:53 am Fear and doubt make people dispute about even obvious matters.
A lot of people are most afraid of how they’ll be judged. For a lot of people the ego is easily bruised.

One benefit of practice is gratitude. By gratitude we overcome the ego.

Without it we are still children colouring pictures for mommy to look at and put on the fridge.

For some, that colouring is the extent of their meditation and their insight. And for some, that is what they are waiting for others to praise.

But - it’s like that at the beginning for everyone. Luckily one may reach a stage in meditation where they no longer need others as a source of confirmation, praise, acknowledgement, “intellectual erections”.
Disputing and pointing out clear wrongs are two wholly different things.
Pointing out wrong is done from a position of certainty and strength.
I see no wrong with Buddha Dhamma. For a collection of words and sayings that cover volumes and volumes of pages, it is quite interesting to note that it has fewer internal contradictions than the whole of the New Testament (a body of words and sayings that can be read in a few days).
Defending clear falsehood is done from fear.
It's relatively easy to spot a discussion from fear and a discussion from strength.
Are you implying a certain falsehood in the Buddha Dhamma?

Is it the teaching of annica? I see no problem with how the Buddha formulated this teaching or the respective purpose it serves in meditative achievement.

Aren’t you some kind of Zen practitioner? Do you find Self in that “zero” you attempt to anchor your mind to?
I don't have to find Self. I am self!
Anything contrary to self is incoherent.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
Zenny
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Re: Disputes and your solutions for resolution.

Post by Zenny »

SteRo wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:17 pm
Zenny wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:57 pm
SteRo wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:47 am
Science as system of thought is a mental phenomenon, yes, but it isn't necessarily a belief system.
If the expressions of the thoughts that happen to me appear "bizarre and incoherent" to you then these appearances also are a mental phenomena which may be believed by you or not.
But I don't want to further converse about all the countless thought associations in the context of the concept "science" that may happen to us depending on earlier conditionings. Since there is no criterion for truth no truth can be found in either "science" or all the countless thought associations in the context of the concept "science" that may happen to us. Nevertheless I appreciate the progress science has brought about although no truth can be found in it.
Science is a belief system. Only the unaware think otherwise.
For some science may be a belief system. For me it's just a system of verbal expression.
You have a lot of faith and belief in your system of verbal expression.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
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