African wisdom?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Mr. Seek
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Re: African wisdom?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Just wanted to note that the intent behind the creation of this topic was purely positive, i.e. not negative. I'm sure that there are a lot of things that Buddhists, and likewise Indian spiritual practitioners, can learn from the African mysteries. Not here to disparage their wisdom (personally), but more like, see if we can connect the dots between their teachings and India's.

:anjali:
Zenny
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Re: African wisdom?

Post by Zenny »

Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:52 am Just wanted to note that the intent behind the creation of this topic was purely positive, i.e. not negative. I'm sure that there are a lot of things that Buddhists, and likewise Indian spiritual practitioners, can learn from the African mysteries. Not here to disparage their wisdom (personally), but more like, see if we can connect the dots between their teachings and India's.

:anjali:
Part of being positive is to acknowledge
the truth of the purposes of many rituals,and combat this cruelty as best we can.
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Dassana
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Re: African wisdom?

Post by Dassana »

Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:17 am
Thank you for that post! Very nice exposition of your experience. And squares with my experience.
All round the world from the tribal religions to the more widespread religions there are common principles and actions.
Number one is sacrifice either of animals,money or personal sacrifices to a deity/principle to ease suffering.
Two is rules and regulations to avert danger from the community.
Three is an elaborate cosmology.
Four,and the main one is a hierarchy of an eternal Saviour and priests to direct,enforce,teach,propagate and be Paid/taxed by the community at large to avert disaster.
The last principle is the belief in contagion.
Even secularism has all of these in full operation.
There are differences in details and implementation but the principles are the same. Hierarchy over the individual or otherwise
suffering and contagion...
Seems "development" is only material not Spiritual.
This is a really fascinating list of criteria that I haven't heard before - thank you for sharing
Zenny
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Re: African wisdom?

Post by Zenny »

Dassana wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:30 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:17 am
Thank you for that post! Very nice exposition of your experience. And squares with my experience.
All round the world from the tribal religions to the more widespread religions there are common principles and actions.
Number one is sacrifice either of animals,money or personal sacrifices to a deity/principle to ease suffering.
Two is rules and regulations to avert danger from the community.
Three is an elaborate cosmology.
Four,and the main one is a hierarchy of an eternal Saviour and priests to direct,enforce,teach,propagate and be Paid/taxed by the community at large to avert disaster.
The last principle is the belief in contagion.
Even secularism has all of these in full operation.
There are differences in details and implementation but the principles are the same. Hierarchy over the individual or otherwise
suffering and contagion...
Seems "development" is only material not Spiritual.
This is a really fascinating list of criteria that I haven't heard before - thank you for sharing
All organised religions come from man's psychology.
Non organised religions are far better. The religion of Love and Family.
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cappuccino
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Re: African wisdom?

Post by cappuccino »

Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:41 pm Non organised religions are far better.
will never lead to Nirvana


which you do not seem to care for


because you do not realize its value
Dassana
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Re: African wisdom?

Post by Dassana »

Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:36 am
Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:27 am
Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:08 am

With respect. Sometimes humans are sacrificed,and the original point of these rituals is to harvest the energy of the fear of dying animals and the dramatic effect of death on the crowd of these rituals. The priest gains in power,fame and reputation by doing the killing. Metaphorically becoming responsible for life and death.

One can not whitewash history or current practices.
In certain parts of the world people still flagellate their backs until they draw blood. Rituals are a process of cruelty,physical or symbolic.
Look at Christianity,in the eucharist you are symbolically eating the flesh and blood of a man tortured to death!
I guess ashe plays a big role in these endeavours.
Well let's call a spade a spade. ashe is in fact ritual cruelty.
The common core of nearly all religions,philosophies and political systems.
Ashe is the life-force energy that permeates us all. Ashe is found in the blood and it's the transference of Ashe that is primarily focused on for sacrifices. I suppose you can call it ritual cruelty in practice from a first precept perspective, but the intention isn't cruelty, and it quite literally "works" other than the kamma accrued from the action. From a greed, hatred, delusion perspective, it is much more delusion or greed than hatred. In the case of more malevolent practitioners, there is explicit hatred that is used when an animal's life is taken to try to cause harm or suffering or death to another human. This "works" too.
Zenny
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Re: African wisdom?

Post by Zenny »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:46 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:41 pm Non organised religions are far better.
will never lead to Nirvana


which you do not seem to care for


because you do not realize its value
When you get to nirvana give me a call.
Your right,I don't care about the fear instilled by organised religions.
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Zenny
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Re: African wisdom?

Post by Zenny »

Dassana wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:54 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:36 am
Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:27 am
I guess ashe plays a big role in these endeavours.
Well let's call a spade a spade. ashe is in fact ritual cruelty.
The common core of nearly all religions,philosophies and political systems.
Ashe is the life-force energy that permeates us all. Ashe is found in the blood and it's the transference of Ashe that is primarily focused on for sacrifices. I suppose you can call it ritual cruelty in practice from a first precept perspective, but the intention isn't cruelty, and it quite literally "works" other than the kamma accrued from the action. From a greed, hatred, delusion perspective, it is much more delusion or greed than hatred. In the case of more malevolent practitioners, there is explicit hatred that is used when an animal's life is taken to try to cause harm or suffering or death to another human. This "works" too.
Yes,it works to a degree. But it is evil.
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Dassana
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Re: African wisdom?

Post by Dassana »

Dassana wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:54 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:36 am
Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:27 am
I guess ashe plays a big role in these endeavours.
Well let's call a spade a spade. ashe is in fact ritual cruelty.
The common core of nearly all religions,philosophies and political systems.
Ashe is the life-force energy that permeates us all. Ashe is found in the blood and it's the transference of Ashe that is primarily focused on for sacrifices. I suppose you can call it ritual cruelty in practice from a first precept perspective, but the intention isn't cruelty, and it quite literally "works" other than the kamma accrued from the action. From a greed, hatred, delusion perspective, it is much more delusion or greed than hatred. In the case of more malevolent practitioners, there is explicit hatred that is used when an animal's life is taken to try to cause harm or suffering or death to another human. This "works" too.
And just to be explicitly clear. I am not condoning animal sacrifice in any way. It's the main reason why I haven't been able to continue with these traditions as they are practiced. I just have a lot of familiarity and understanding of many of these practitioners, the mechanics of how it works within the tradition, and why they do it. In their belief, cruelty or hatred, or even anger is not in their mind state when it happens. It's more so treating it as a necessary action within the tradition, and appeasing the deities and accomplishing a goal for the person seeking help. Volitionally, you can make the case that all volition killing is cruelty but I still believe it is coming from ignorance rather than ill-will.
Last edited by Dassana on Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Dassana
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Re: African wisdom?

Post by Dassana »

Mr. Seek wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:55 am
Dassana wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:10 pmI'm happy to answer any other questions as I'm able to. I'm also still in daily communication with practitioners and priests in West Africa and I'm happy to ask them more specific questions if I don't have the answers.
Respect for being an initiate into Ifa / a babalawo. About the blood sacrifice: I've heard that it was originally regarded just as a matter of sharing your [special] meal; that animals weren't killed specifically for the sake of being sacrificed, and that to do so would be bad. What do you think?
I wrote a long response to this which didn't seem to post for some reason, but I will respond again later today. Thanks for your interest! It's rare to find people who are interested in this overlap and I have unique perspective since I have spent nearly a decade with both Vodu and Ifa and in the last year and a half, the Pali Canon and Theravada Buddhism. I was really fascinated on the overlap for a while. There are definitely some amazing esoteric learnings I have had through my experiences in African Spirituality that helped me to grasp the Dhamma and teachings of the Buddha.
Bundokji
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Re: African wisdom?

Post by Bundokji »

Dassana wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:10 pm I believe there is plenty to learn from these traditions about an understanding of spiritual cosmology and harmonizing with the invisible forces around us, and while some of the practices can bring us closer to spiritual awareness and harmony, there are also distinct differences that are not in accordance with the Dhamma. The use of blood, which I do understand and do believe "works", it's at a kammic cost that is not understood within the tradition.
Could you elaborate further please? The sacrifice of blood works for what?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

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cappuccino
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Re: African wisdom?

Post by cappuccino »

Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:00 pm I don't care about the fear
:shrug:
Zenny
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Re: African wisdom?

Post by Zenny »

Dassana wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:12 pm
Dassana wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:54 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:36 am
Well let's call a spade a spade. ashe is in fact ritual cruelty.
The common core of nearly all religions,philosophies and political systems.
Ashe is the life-force energy that permeates us all. Ashe is found in the blood and it's the transference of Ashe that is primarily focused on for sacrifices. I suppose you can call it ritual cruelty in practice from a first precept perspective, but the intention isn't cruelty, and it quite literally "works" other than the kamma accrued from the action. From a greed, hatred, delusion perspective, it is much more delusion or greed than hatred. In the case of more malevolent practitioners, there is explicit hatred that is used when an animal's life is taken to try to cause harm or suffering or death to another human. This "works" too.
And just to be explicitly clear. I am not condoning animal sacrifice in any way. It's the main reason why I haven't been able to continue with these traditions as they are practiced. I just have a lot of familiarity and understanding of many of these practitioners, the mechanics of how it works within the tradition, and why they do it. In their belief, cruelty or hatred, or even anger is not in their mind state when it happens. It's more so treating it as a necessary action within the tradition, and appeasing the deities and accomplishing a goal for the person seeking help. Volitionally, you can make the case that all volition killing is cruelty but I still believe it is coming from ignorance rather than ill-will.
A small minority may do these things out of ignorance.
The vast majority is done out of cruelty. I've seen it.
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Dassana
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Re: African wisdom?

Post by Dassana »

Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:46 pm
Dassana wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:12 pm
Dassana wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:54 pm

Ashe is the life-force energy that permeates us all. Ashe is found in the blood and it's the transference of Ashe that is primarily focused on for sacrifices. I suppose you can call it ritual cruelty in practice from a first precept perspective, but the intention isn't cruelty, and it quite literally "works" other than the kamma accrued from the action. From a greed, hatred, delusion perspective, it is much more delusion or greed than hatred. In the case of more malevolent practitioners, there is explicit hatred that is used when an animal's life is taken to try to cause harm or suffering or death to another human. This "works" too.
And just to be explicitly clear. I am not condoning animal sacrifice in any way. It's the main reason why I haven't been able to continue with these traditions as they are practiced. I just have a lot of familiarity and understanding of many of these practitioners, the mechanics of how it works within the tradition, and why they do it. In their belief, cruelty or hatred, or even anger is not in their mind state when it happens. It's more so treating it as a necessary action within the tradition, and appeasing the deities and accomplishing a goal for the person seeking help. Volitionally, you can make the case that all volition killing is cruelty but I still believe it is coming from ignorance rather than ill-will.
A small minority may do these things out of ignorance.
The vast majority is done out of cruelty. I've seen it.
I have not seen actions of people that come to mind taking animal life for the reason of cruelty. That being said, there is cruelty in the action and there is an extreme amount of neglect and arguably ill-will to lead an animal to its demise and be the cause of that. I don't doubt that you have seen it done out of cruelty. In an ultimate sense, I agree with you. In an African and indigenous sense, it is just part of the cycles and realities of life. They have an intimacy with death in a way we often lack in the West. I also say all of this is as an ethnically mixed European/Jewish person so my perspective is very much as an outsider rather than being African or Indigenous myself.

I would just be mindful to be aware of labeling the action as evil or cruel, versus the practitioner as being evil. There are many cases of Brahmins who gave up animal sacrifice when exposed to the True Dhamma. There are many African Spirituality practitioners I have met who would be incredible Dhamma practitioners using the tools they have but refining them in accordance with the Eightfold Path. Ignorance is the root cause of all evil, but "evil" actions can come more from delusion as opposed to ill-will.
Zenny
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Re: African wisdom?

Post by Zenny »

Dassana wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:09 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:46 pm
Dassana wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:12 pm

And just to be explicitly clear. I am not condoning animal sacrifice in any way. It's the main reason why I haven't been able to continue with these traditions as they are practiced. I just have a lot of familiarity and understanding of many of these practitioners, the mechanics of how it works within the tradition, and why they do it. In their belief, cruelty or hatred, or even anger is not in their mind state when it happens. It's more so treating it as a necessary action within the tradition, and appeasing the deities and accomplishing a goal for the person seeking help. Volitionally, you can make the case that all volition killing is cruelty but I still believe it is coming from ignorance rather than ill-will.
A small minority may do these things out of ignorance.
The vast majority is done out of cruelty. I've seen it.
I have not seen actions of people that come to mind taking animal life for the reason of cruelty. That being said, there is cruelty in the action and there is an extreme amount of neglect and arguably ill-will to lead an animal to its demise and be the cause of that. I don't doubt that you have seen it done out of cruelty. In an ultimate sense, I agree with you. In an African and indigenous sense, it is just part of the cycles and realities of life. They have an intimacy with death in a way we often lack in the West. I also say all of this is as an ethnically mixed European/Jewish person so my perspective is very much as an outsider rather than being African or Indigenous myself.

I would just be mindful to be aware of labeling the action as evil or cruel, versus the practitioner as being evil. There are many cases of Brahmins who gave up animal sacrifice when exposed to the True Dhamma. There are many African Spirituality practitioners I have met who would be incredible Dhamma practitioners using the tools they have but refining them in accordance with the Eightfold Path. Ignorance is the root cause of all evil, but "evil" actions can come more from delusion as opposed to ill-will.
A small minority do things our of ignorance.
But the vast majority do these things from cruelty.
The deed in these cases are not seperate from the doers.
You think someone kills or harms a human from ignorance?
Maybe you haven't truly experienced true evil and its practioners.
These people are irredeemable.
Last edited by Zenny on Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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