Wanted to ask if any of you have encountered teachings and or wisdom from within Africa's systems of spirituality, that resemble or come close to what the Buddha and or his contemporaries (brahmins, samanas, tantrikas, etc.) taught?
I guess this question also applies to spiritual systems direcrly derived from and related to those of Africa, e.g. Voudon (Haiti), Palo Mayombe (Cuba), Macumba (Brazil), etc. Just curious, would love to hear some input, thanks.
What can we learn from them? E.g. Yoruba, Kongo, etc.
African wisdom?
Re: African wisdom?
I am a big fan of Evan Pritchard’s book - the granary example I think has relevance to Buddhist conceptions of karma
Jah Ras Tafari - Ethiopia, spiritual leader Haile Selassie
Speech to United Nations
Sunday, October 6, 1963
The Lion of Judah has prevailed
Haile Selassie I, Elect of God
King of Kings of Ethiopia
"Twenty-seven years ago, as Emperor of Ethiopia, I mounted the rostrum in Geneva, Switzerland, to address the League of Nations and to appeal for relief from the destruction which had been unleashed against my defenseless nation, by the Fascist invader. [fascist italy sprayed poison gas from planes, killing many thousands] I spoke then both to and for the conscience of the world. My words went unheeded, but history testifies to the accuracy of the warning that I gave in 1936. ...
In 1936, I declared that it was not the Covenant of the League that was at stake, but international morality. Undertakings, I said then, are of little worth if the will to keep them is lacking. The Charter of the United Nations expresses the noblest aspirations of man: abjuration of force in the settlement of disputes between states; the assurance of human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion; the safeguarding of international peace and security"
"Until the philosophy that sustains a superior and an inferior race is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned.; until there are no first and second class citizens of any nation.
Until the color of a man's skin is no more important than the color of his eyes. Until basic Human Rights are equally guaranteed to all regardless of race. That until that day, the dream of lasting peace and world citizenship and the rule of international morality, will remain a fleeting illusion, to chase but never reached.
... Until intolerance and prejudice and malicious and inhuman selfishness have been replaced by understanding, tolerance and goodwill. Until all Africans stand up and speak like free human beings, equal in the eyes of all men, as they are in the eyes of heaven; until that day, the African continent will not know peace."
Speech to United Nations
Sunday, October 6, 1963
The Lion of Judah has prevailed
Haile Selassie I, Elect of God
King of Kings of Ethiopia
"Twenty-seven years ago, as Emperor of Ethiopia, I mounted the rostrum in Geneva, Switzerland, to address the League of Nations and to appeal for relief from the destruction which had been unleashed against my defenseless nation, by the Fascist invader. [fascist italy sprayed poison gas from planes, killing many thousands] I spoke then both to and for the conscience of the world. My words went unheeded, but history testifies to the accuracy of the warning that I gave in 1936. ...
In 1936, I declared that it was not the Covenant of the League that was at stake, but international morality. Undertakings, I said then, are of little worth if the will to keep them is lacking. The Charter of the United Nations expresses the noblest aspirations of man: abjuration of force in the settlement of disputes between states; the assurance of human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion; the safeguarding of international peace and security"
"Until the philosophy that sustains a superior and an inferior race is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned.; until there are no first and second class citizens of any nation.
Until the color of a man's skin is no more important than the color of his eyes. Until basic Human Rights are equally guaranteed to all regardless of race. That until that day, the dream of lasting peace and world citizenship and the rule of international morality, will remain a fleeting illusion, to chase but never reached.
... Until intolerance and prejudice and malicious and inhuman selfishness have been replaced by understanding, tolerance and goodwill. Until all Africans stand up and speak like free human beings, equal in the eyes of all men, as they are in the eyes of heaven; until that day, the African continent will not know peace."
- cappuccino
- Posts: 12879
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
- Contact:
Re: African wisdom?
I think like most people of European heritage, I'm largely ignorant of the rich African cultural heritage. I have read some things and various proverbs and stories have touched me. But most of all I have been touched by the "earthiness" and "sincerity" of some African people I've met. In a certain sense they just seemed much more real than us, the neurotic Europeans. I guess at least some of this is projection.
_/|\_
-
- Posts: 2298
- Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm
Re: African wisdom?
I married into a family where some practice Santeria (afro-latin folk religion). I don't know a lot about it, some of it involves ritual magic. There are light and dark elements of it to be sure-- health spells, love spells, and also curses. I have not seen much of it that resembles dhamma.
There African american christian groups around here in Oakland who have more metta and karuna than most Buddhists do.
Martin Luther King sometimes in his speeches sounded like dhamma--perhaps his connection to Thich Nhat Han was not coincidental.
There African american christian groups around here in Oakland who have more metta and karuna than most Buddhists do.
Martin Luther King sometimes in his speeches sounded like dhamma--perhaps his connection to Thich Nhat Han was not coincidental.
Re: African wisdom?
Look at the beginning and ending, not the middle!cappuccino wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:38 pm “If you want to know the end, look at the beginning.”
African Proverb
Arising and ceasing.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/VRGS_sRCpbo/maxresdefault.jpg
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
- cappuccino
- Posts: 12879
- Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
- Contact:
Re: African wisdom?
these beliefs belongs to the first systems of spiritualiy (shamanim, animism, etc) still not linked with the arising of the cities and big religions. In many places of the world these beliefs still exists sharing space with big religions.Mr. Seek wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:56 am Wanted to ask if any of you have encountered teachings and or wisdom from within Africa's systems of spirituality, that resemble or come close to what the Buddha and or his contemporaries (brahmins, samanas, tantrikas, etc.) taught?
I guess this question also applies to spiritual systems direcrly derived from and related to those of Africa, e.g. Voudon (Haiti), Palo Mayombe (Cuba), Macumba (Brazil), etc. Just curious, would love to hear some input, thanks.
What can we learn from them? E.g. Yoruba, Kongo, etc.
That's a common pattern everywhere. Here in Europe those original indigenous beliefs were the first layer of spirituality before arrival of Christianism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_religion
Re: African wisdom?
I have quite a bit of experience with spiritual teachings from West Africa, with almost a decade of experience with Vodu and Afa/Ifa prior to Theravada Buddhism including Ifa initiation. Primarily with understanding of traditions from Togo, Benin, and Nigeria. Even though my heart is close to the deities and Africa, I have moved away from these traditions because of the irreconcilability between the Dhamma and Five Precepts and the use of Animal Sacrifice as being a requisite of practice within these systems.
This doesn't feel like a straightforward question to answer. The short-answer is no, I have not seen any teachings in African spirituality that reference what resembles The Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, Dependent Origination, etc.
The longer answer is that there are a lot of parallels and overlaps in cosmology, and both traditions are aiming towards the reduction and cessation of suffering. Vodu and Ifa (coming from the Yoruba) are based in harmony and balance of life on Earth. There are also a lot of overlaps that esoterically feel relevant. As well as a lot of even more direct similarities between West African priests and Brahmins in India. Vodu, as a literal translation, means something like Welfare or Ease of Society, Freedom for Community. There is an advanced level initiation in Vodu that has a literal translation which is the same as Nibbana. The word for sorcery translates to "bound by fire" which feels like a parallel to the Fire Sermon.
You can find a direct overlap between many Ifa Deities and Devas in the Buddhist Cosmology (Sakka is Shango, the Nagas are Mami Dan, Olodumare is a Creator God like Brahma, Hungry Ghosts are similar in both traditions, etc). The Buddha acknowledged the merit between offerings to Hungry Ghosts/Devas in a way that resembles Ifa. Vodu and Ifa teach many methods about how to connect with the invisible worlds and bring harmony to them. Ifa as a divination system is absolutely incredible, and I believe directionally moves more towards harmony, than away from it. It's a codex of spiritual understanding and knowledge. Ifa is also the spiritual system of the Palm Tree, and all of the original suttas were recorded on Palm Leaves.
The Buddha also explicitly spoke out against "stick-casting" and very inherently against animal sacrifice. Most African traditions that I am aware of practice animal sacrifice in some way and it is core to its belief systems, especially in regards to Vodu and Ifa. Blood is the nourishment for the deities and the ancestors and it is difficult for them to do their work without it. I believe that the Sangoma in South Africa, and Bwiti in Gabon, don't use animal sacrifice as core to their healing practices but they do use other methods that the Buddha would have likely disagreed with. There are very specific sects within Vodu and Ifa Cosmology that do not use blood sacrifice, and certain spirits where it's not appropriate, but the idea of practicing without the use of offering animal life is fundamentally impossible in the belief of many traditional practitioners.
I believe there is plenty to learn from these traditions about an understanding of spiritual cosmology and harmonizing with the invisible forces around us, and while some of the practices can bring us closer to spiritual awareness and harmony, there are also distinct differences that are not in accordance with the Dhamma. The use of blood, which I do understand and do believe "works", it's at a kammic cost that is not understood within the tradition. The use of sacrifice in Ifa somewhat parallels the dictation that was given by God to the Jewish around animal sacrifice so the idea of stopping what God commanded for the wellness of humanity is seen as something inconceivable by Ifa and Vodu practitioners.
The cosmology and understanding of these traditions is however incredibly rich, and I am not demonizing them in any way. I have gained a lot through my own path and without these traditions, I never would have landed at my conviction in the three jewels.
I'm happy to answer any other questions as I'm able to. I'm also still in daily communication with practitioners and priests in West Africa and I'm happy to ask them more specific questions if I don't have the answers.
Blessings
This doesn't feel like a straightforward question to answer. The short-answer is no, I have not seen any teachings in African spirituality that reference what resembles The Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, Dependent Origination, etc.
The longer answer is that there are a lot of parallels and overlaps in cosmology, and both traditions are aiming towards the reduction and cessation of suffering. Vodu and Ifa (coming from the Yoruba) are based in harmony and balance of life on Earth. There are also a lot of overlaps that esoterically feel relevant. As well as a lot of even more direct similarities between West African priests and Brahmins in India. Vodu, as a literal translation, means something like Welfare or Ease of Society, Freedom for Community. There is an advanced level initiation in Vodu that has a literal translation which is the same as Nibbana. The word for sorcery translates to "bound by fire" which feels like a parallel to the Fire Sermon.
You can find a direct overlap between many Ifa Deities and Devas in the Buddhist Cosmology (Sakka is Shango, the Nagas are Mami Dan, Olodumare is a Creator God like Brahma, Hungry Ghosts are similar in both traditions, etc). The Buddha acknowledged the merit between offerings to Hungry Ghosts/Devas in a way that resembles Ifa. Vodu and Ifa teach many methods about how to connect with the invisible worlds and bring harmony to them. Ifa as a divination system is absolutely incredible, and I believe directionally moves more towards harmony, than away from it. It's a codex of spiritual understanding and knowledge. Ifa is also the spiritual system of the Palm Tree, and all of the original suttas were recorded on Palm Leaves.
The Buddha also explicitly spoke out against "stick-casting" and very inherently against animal sacrifice. Most African traditions that I am aware of practice animal sacrifice in some way and it is core to its belief systems, especially in regards to Vodu and Ifa. Blood is the nourishment for the deities and the ancestors and it is difficult for them to do their work without it. I believe that the Sangoma in South Africa, and Bwiti in Gabon, don't use animal sacrifice as core to their healing practices but they do use other methods that the Buddha would have likely disagreed with. There are very specific sects within Vodu and Ifa Cosmology that do not use blood sacrifice, and certain spirits where it's not appropriate, but the idea of practicing without the use of offering animal life is fundamentally impossible in the belief of many traditional practitioners.
I believe there is plenty to learn from these traditions about an understanding of spiritual cosmology and harmonizing with the invisible forces around us, and while some of the practices can bring us closer to spiritual awareness and harmony, there are also distinct differences that are not in accordance with the Dhamma. The use of blood, which I do understand and do believe "works", it's at a kammic cost that is not understood within the tradition. The use of sacrifice in Ifa somewhat parallels the dictation that was given by God to the Jewish around animal sacrifice so the idea of stopping what God commanded for the wellness of humanity is seen as something inconceivable by Ifa and Vodu practitioners.
The cosmology and understanding of these traditions is however incredibly rich, and I am not demonizing them in any way. I have gained a lot through my own path and without these traditions, I never would have landed at my conviction in the three jewels.
I'm happy to answer any other questions as I'm able to. I'm also still in daily communication with practitioners and priests in West Africa and I'm happy to ask them more specific questions if I don't have the answers.
Blessings
Last edited by Dassana on Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: African wisdom?
Thank you for that post! Very nice exposition of your experience. And squares with my experience.Dassana wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:10 pm I have quite a bit of experience with spiritual teachings from West Africa, with almost a decade of experience with Vodu and Afa/Ifa prior to Theravada Buddhism including Ifa initiation. Primarily with understanding of traditions from Togo, Benin, and Nigeria. Even though my heart is close to the deities and Africa, I have moved away from these traditions because of the irreconcilability between the Dhamma and Five Precepts and the use of Animal Sacrifice as being a requisite of practice within these systems.
This doesn't feel like a straightforward question to answer. The short-answer is no, I have not seen any teachings in African spirituality that reference what resembles The Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, Dependent Origination, etc.
The longer answer is that there are a lot of parallels and overlaps in cosmology, and both traditions are aiming towards the reduction and cessation of suffering. Vodu and Ifa (coming from the Yoruba) are based in harmony and balance of life on Earth. There are also a lot of overlaps that esoterically feel relevant. As well as a lot of even more direct similarities between West African priests and Brahmins in India. Vodu, as a literal translation, means something like Welfare or Ease of Society, Freedom for Community. There is an advanced level initiation in Vodu that has a literal translation which is the same as Nibbana. The word for sorcery translates to "bound by fire" which feels like a parallel to the Fire Sermon.
You can find a direct overlap between many Ifa Deities and Devas in the Buddhist Cosmology (Sakka is Shango, the Nagas are Mami Dan, Olodumare is a Creator God like Brahma, Hungry Ghosts are similar in both traditions, etc). The Buddha acknowledged the merit between offerings to Hungry Ghosts/Devas in a way that resembles Ifa. Vodu and Ifa teach many methods about how to connect with the invisible worlds and bring harmony to them. Ifa as a divination system is absolutely incredible, and I believe directionally moves more towards harmony, than away from it. It's a codex of spiritual understanding and knowledge. Ifa is also the spiritual system of the Palm Tree, and all of the original suttas were recorded on Palm Leaves.
The Buddha also explicitly spoke out against "stick-casting" and very inherently against animal sacrifice. Most African traditions that I am aware of practice animal sacrifice in some way and it is core to its belief systems, especially in regards to Vodu and Ifa. Blood is the nourishment for the deities and the ancestors and it is difficult for them to do their work without it. I believe that the Sangoma in South Africa, and Bwiti in Gabon, don't use animal sacrifice as core to their healing practices but they do use other methods that the Buddha would have likely disagreed with. There are very specific sects within Vodu and Ifa Cosmology that do not use blood sacrifice, and certain spirits where it's not appropriate, but the idea of practicing without the use of offering animal life is fundamentally impossible in the belief of many traditional practitioners.
I believe there is plenty to learn from these traditions about an understanding of spiritual cosmology and harmonizing with the invisible forces around us, and while some of the practices can bring us closer to spiritual awareness and harmony, there are also distinct differences that are not in accordance with the Dhamma. The use of blood, which I do understand and do believe "works", it's at a kammic cost that is not understood within the tradition. The use of sacrifice in Ifa somewhat parallels the dictation that was given by God to the Jewish around animal sacrifice so the idea of stopping what God commanded for the wellness of humanity is seen as something inconceivable by Ifa and Vodu practitioners.
The cosmology and understanding of these traditions is however incredibly rich, and I am not demonizing them in any way. I have gained a lot through my own path and without these traditions, I never would have landed at my conviction in the three jewels.
I'm happy to answer any other questions as I'm able to. I'm also still in daily communication with practitioners and priests in West Africa and I'm happy to ask them more specific questions if I don't have the answers.
Blessings
All round the world from the tribal religions to the more widespread religions there are common principles and actions.
Number one is sacrifice either of animals,money or personal sacrifices to a deity/principle to ease suffering.
Two is rules and regulations to avert danger from the community.
Three is an elaborate cosmology.
Four,and the main one is a hierarchy of an eternal Saviour and priests to direct,enforce,teach,propagate and be Paid/taxed by the community at large to avert disaster.
The last principle is the belief in contagion.
Even secularism has all of these in full operation.
There are differences in details and implementation but the principles are the same. Hierarchy over the individual or otherwise
suffering and contagion...
Seems "development" is only material not Spiritual.
Last edited by Zenny on Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
Focus!
Re: African wisdom?
Respect for being an initiate into Ifa / a babalawo. About the blood sacrifice: I've heard that it was originally regarded just as a matter of sharing your [special] meal; that animals weren't killed specifically for the sake of being sacrificed, and that to do so would be bad. What do you think?
Re: African wisdom?
With respect. Sometimes humans are sacrificed,and the original point of these rituals is to harvest the energy of the fear of dying animals and the dramatic effect of death on the crowd of these rituals. The priest gains in power,fame and reputation by doing the killing. Metaphorically becoming responsible for life and death.Mr. Seek wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:55 amRespect for being an initiate into Ifa / a babalawo. About the blood sacrifice: I've heard that it was originally regarded just as a matter of sharing your [special] meal; that animals weren't killed specifically for the sake of being sacrificed, and that to do so would be bad. What do you think?
One can not whitewash history or current practices.
In certain parts of the world people still flagellate their backs until they draw blood. Rituals are a process of cruelty,physical or symbolic.
Look at Christianity,in the eucharist you are symbolically eating the flesh and blood of a man tortured to death!
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
Focus!
Re: African wisdom?
Well let's call a spade a spade. ashe is in fact ritual cruelty.Mr. Seek wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:27 amI guess ashe plays a big role in these endeavours.Zenny wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:08 amWith respect. Sometimes humans are sacrificed,and the original point of these rituals is to harvest the energy of the fear of dying animals and the dramatic effect of death on the crowd of these rituals. The priest gains in power,fame and reputation by doing the killing. Metaphorically becoming responsible for life and death.Mr. Seek wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:55 am
Respect for being an initiate into Ifa / a babalawo. About the blood sacrifice: I've heard that it was originally regarded just as a matter of sharing your [special] meal; that animals weren't killed specifically for the sake of being sacrificed, and that to do so would be bad. What do you think?
One can not whitewash history or current practices.
In certain parts of the world people still flagellate their backs until they draw blood. Rituals are a process of cruelty,physical or symbolic.
Look at Christianity,in the eucharist you are symbolically eating the flesh and blood of a man tortured to death!
The common core of nearly all religions,philosophies and political systems.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
Focus!