The Dogma: On Not Taking Nāgārjuna Seriously (Seriously!)

[Aloka]

I came across this article by Jayarava Attwood & thought I'd post it at Dhamma Wheel because Nagarjuna gets mentioned here occasionally:

The Dogma: On Not Taking Nāgārjuna Seriously (Seriously!)

http://jayarava.blogspot.com/2021/08/the-dogma.html




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[cappuccino]

Like Richard Feynman, I'd rather have questions that cannot be answered than answers that cannot be questioned.

[un8-]

Very good post, thanks!

I also find the interpretation of "The Dogmatists" to be not practical at all, it's usually "meditate until a magical experience happens".

This is why I always repeat the Gotami sutta, if it doesn't lead to dispassion, it's not the dhamma. I don't see how a metaphysical pseudo-scientific interpretation leads to dispassion.

[DooDoot]

Nagarjuna is thinking your way to a non-thinking non-yours

[mikenz66]

Thanks Aloka, Jayarava is always fun to read.

I think this is useful reading for people on various sides of the Jhana Wars:

4. Emptiness is reality.

The final point is that, in the Dogma, it is assumed that the absence of sensory experience is reality. And this is the heart of the matter. It is this assumption that leads to all of the others.

We all know, either first or second hand, that the cessation of sense experience without the loss of awareness is a profound and potentially life-changing experience. And it's fairly obvious that the techniques to bring experience to a halt were in widespread use in the Ganges valley by the time of the second urbanisation, from about the 6th Century BCE onwards. The new cities attracted Brahmin immigration from the West, too, which is another story.

We should not be too harsh on this point. The assertion--that lack of experience is reality--is one that is common in Indian religious thought. The cessation of sense experience was taken to be reality by Brahmins, Jaina, and Sāṃkhyakas as well as Bauddhikas.

But here's the thing. The cessation of experience is simply the cessation of experience, it is not reality. And this can be seen in how different religions interpret it as Brahman, ātman, puruṣa, jīva, pudgala, advaita, śūnyatā, etc.

Mike

[Ceisiwr]

Very good post, thanks!

I also find the interpretation of "The Dogmatists" to be not practical at all, it's usually "meditate until a magical experience happens".

This is why I always repeat the Gotami sutta, if it doesn't lead to dispassion, it's not the dhamma. I don't see how a metaphysical pseudo-scientific interpretation leads to dispassion.

I find it strange that you think Ven. Nāgārjuna subscribed to some kind of metaphysics? Seems to be the very opposite of his approach.

[Ceisiwr]

4. Emptiness is reality.

The final point is that, in the Dogma, it is assumed that the absence of sensory experience is reality. And this is the heart of the matter. It is this assumption that leads to all of the others.

I could be wrong but I don’t think that Ven. Nāgārjuna saw emptiness as a reality, or higher reality. To him emptiness is also conventional. The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth. Neither existence nor non-existence.

[confusedlayman]

4. Emptiness is reality.

The final point is that, in the Dogma, it is assumed that the absence of sensory experience is reality. And this is the heart of the matter. It is this assumption that leads to all of the others.

I could be wrong but I don’t think that Ven. Nāgārjuna saw emptiness as a reality, or higher reality. To him emptiness is also conventional. The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth. Neither existence nor non-existence.

Correct all views droped