Theravada view vs secular view on killing

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Zenny
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Re: Theravada view vs secular view on killing

Post by Zenny »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:12 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:02 pm How about starting from basic certainties instead?
Four Noble Truths
And what do those say about karma?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Theravada view vs secular view on killing

Post by Coëmgenu »

Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:12 pmSo those with a short life span are klillers?
And are you going to reply to are children responsible for their abuse?
There're all sorts of reasons why someone might have a short lifespan, karmically speaking, and being a murderer is an unlikely reason. Most "former murderers" have extraordinarily long lifespans in hell. I used "quotes" because when we speak of one life and a subsequent rebirth as "the same person," it is a human fallacy. The reborn is not the same as the deceased.

I have a weak stomach. If I eat raw garlic, I'll immediately vomit. It's possible, nay likely, that past karma is responsible. Let's say, for the sake of an example, that I poisoned someone in a past life without the intent to kill. I today am not the poisoner. I am a mere "bearer of a burden" from the past. It is not true that "I" am still a poisoner.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Theravada view vs secular view on killing

Post by cappuccino »

Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:37 pm
cappuccino wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:12 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:02 pm How about starting from basic certainties instead?
Four Noble Truths
And what do those say about karma?
sages are the ones who are controlling their future (karma)


everyone else is sort of leaving it to chance (karma)
Last edited by cappuccino on Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zenny
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Re: Theravada view vs secular view on killing

Post by Zenny »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:49 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:12 pmSo those with a short life span are klillers?
And are you going to reply to are children responsible for their abuse?
There're all sorts of reasons why someone might have a short lifespan, karmically speaking, and being a murderer is an unlikely reason. Most "former murderers" have extraordinarily long lifespans in hell. I used "quotes" because when we speak of one life and a subsequent rebirth as "the same person," it is a human fallacy. The reborn is not the same as the deceased.

I have a weak stomach. If I eat raw garlic, I'll immediately vomit. It's possible, nay likely, that past karma is responsible. Let's say, for the sake of an example, that I poisoned someone in a past life without the intent to kill. I today am not the poisoner. I am a mere "bearer of a burden" from the past. It is not true that "I" am still a poisoner.
So have children committed a past life deed that necessitates their abuse?
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Zenny
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Re: Theravada view vs secular view on killing

Post by Zenny »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:53 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:37 pm
cappuccino wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:12 pm

Four Noble Truths
And what do those say about karma?
sages are the ones who are controlling their future (karma)


everyone else is sort of leaving it to chance (karma)
I don't believe in chance.
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cappuccino
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Re: Theravada view vs secular view on killing

Post by cappuccino »

Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:57 pm
I don't believe in chance.
I think it's a matter of chance if you benefit from this religion
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Theravada view vs secular view on killing

Post by Coëmgenu »

Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:57 pmSo have children committed a past life deed that necessitates their abuse?
The children can't have committed a past life deed unless they can travel through time and lives. IMO, it is a mistake to attribute moral culpability for particular former karma to people who suffer in the here and now.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Theravada view vs secular view on killing

Post by Zenny »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:01 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:57 pm
I don't believe in chance.
I think it's a matter of chance if you benefit from this religion
Why are you assuming I need any religion?
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Zenny
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Re: Theravada view vs secular view on killing

Post by Zenny »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:03 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:57 pmSo have children committed a past life deed that necessitates their abuse?
The children can't have committed a past life deed unless they can travel through time and lives. IMO, it is a mistake to attribute moral culpability for particular former karma to people who suffer in the here and now.
Yet in this thread people are saying karma is from past life actions.
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cappuccino
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Re: Theravada view vs secular view on killing

Post by cappuccino »

Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:03 pm Why are you assuming I need any religion?
because you are in Saṃsāra
Last edited by cappuccino on Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zenny
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Re: Theravada view vs secular view on killing

Post by Zenny »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:06 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:03 pm Why are you assuming I need any religion?
because you are in Samsara


whether or not that's relevant to you
I'm in England mate.
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cappuccino
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Re: Theravada view vs secular view on killing

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Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:06 pm I'm in England mate.
K
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Theravada view vs secular view on killing

Post by Coëmgenu »

Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:05 pmYet in this thread people are saying karma is from past life actions.
It is. All the same, no one is morally responsible for what happened before they were even an infant on terms of how we treat people.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Theravada view vs secular view on killing

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:09 pm All the same, no one is morally responsible for what happened before they were even an infant
karma :

long life, health, beauty, power, riches, high birth, wisdom
Zenny
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Re: Theravada view vs secular view on killing

Post by Zenny »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:09 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:05 pmYet in this thread people are saying karma is from past life actions.
It is. All the same, no one is morally responsible for what happened before they were even an infant on terms of how we treat people.
Yet people couldn't out and out clearly say that children were not responsible for their negative karma.
And you are still saying people have murdered or such like but have no knowledge of it. That's incoherent.
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