The four elements and the four noble truths

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Bundokji
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The four elements and the four noble truths

Post by Bundokji »

I am not sure if opening this thread is a good idea because it would be extremely interpretive and metaphorical.

Do we know of any connections between the four noble truths and the four elements? or between the Buddha's teachings and alchemy?

Alchemy and the four elements are often perceived by modernists as the superstitions of the ancients. The Buddha is often described as an empiricist who emphasized "seeing" and who embodied the spirit of the modern scientific approach to inquiry and knowledge. Viewing the Buddha's teachings as "esoteric" becomes less common.

In the suttas, the four elements is used as attributes or qualities. For example, the earth element is associated with solidity which forms the basis for sensation, and makes the dissolution of the body a manifestation of aging sickness and death. The flowing quality of water makes attachments obstacles to a more natural flow which is associated with feelings of stress. Self view being as a strong intuition is associated with the fire element, and makes the fire sermon worthy of being the first Buddhist exposition of the teachings, where nibbana becomes well-designated as "coolness". The fourth element, which begins with right view and right thought makes the air element associated with the mind. Alchemy as an ancient way of thought have always been interested in transformation, and enlightenment seems to be a radical transformation in the ways we perceive, feel and think.

I would end this by quoting DN11:
"'Your question should not be phrased in this way: Where do these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, and the wind property — cease without remainder? Instead, it should be phrased like this:

Where do water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing?
Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?

"'And the answer to that is:

Consciousness without feature,[1]
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"
It might be worth noting that the order/sequence of the four elements changed (except for fire/dhamma and air/mind) from earth, water, fire and wind to water, earth, fire, & wind.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Pondera
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Re: The four elements and the four noble truths

Post by Pondera »

The quote is meant to say that in Nibbana the elements of form to not simply vanish. Instead our attachment to them vanishes.

I have nothing to add about the four elements and the four noble truths. However, I am deeply suspicious that the rupa jhanas are each associated with the four form elements (respectively - earth; water; fire; and wind).

🧐
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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mjaviem
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Re: The four elements and the four noble truths

Post by mjaviem »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:29 pm ...
Do we know of any connections between the four noble truths and the four elements? or between the Buddha's teachings and alchemy?
...
Not that I know. You should not expect to learn about the specifics of the four elements in the Buddha's suttas as you don't expect to learn about the four noble truths in alchemy books. The Buddha only taught 4NT. Alchemy books just teach about the four elements and stuff
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Mr. Seek
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Re: The four elements and the four noble truths

Post by Mr. Seek »

The Origin of Buddhist Meditation by Alexander Wynne has some wonderful esoteric information about pre-Buddhist and Buddhist thoughts on the elements, their use by brahmins on the path to liberation, etc.

Is there a connection between the 4NT and the four elements? No. Infatuation with the elements is alien to Buddhism. Their role in the suttas is not that important.
pegembara
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Re: The four elements and the four noble truths

Post by pegembara »

The body belongs to nature. There is nothing personal or unique about them. That's the truth.
"And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either internal or external. What is the internal earth property? Anything internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, and sustained: This is called the internal earth property. Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the earth property and makes the earth property fade from the mind.

"And what is the liquid property? The liquid property may be either internal or external. What is the internal liquid property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's liquid, watery, & sustained: bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, oil, saliva, mucus, oil-of-the-joints, urine, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's liquid, watery, & sustained: This is called the internal liquid property. Now both the internal liquid property & the external liquid property are simply liquid property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the liquid property and makes the liquid property fade from the mind.

"And what is the fire property? The fire property may be either internal or external. What is the internal fire property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's fire, fiery, & sustained: that by which [the body] is warmed, aged, & consumed with fever; and that by which what is eaten, drunk, consumed & tasted gets properly digested; or anything else internal, within oneself, that's fire, fiery, & sustained: This is called the internal fire property. Now both the internal fire property & the external fire property are simply fire property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the fire property and makes the fire property fade from the mind.

"And what is the wind property? The wind property may be either internal or external. What is the internal wind property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's wind, windy, & sustained: up-going winds, down-going winds, winds in the stomach, winds in the intestines, winds that course through the body, in-and-out breathing, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's wind, windy, & sustained: This is called the internal wind property. Now both the internal wind property & the external wind property are simply wind property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the wind property and makes the wind property fade from the mind.

Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta: An Analysis of the Properties
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
form
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Re: The four elements and the four noble truths

Post by form »

Although there are several areas in the nikaya where the Buddha used Gold in the similes to meditation, I think this has nothing to do with philosopher gold.
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