Are some religions wrong and other religions right? Beliefs are just beliefs. Some individuals may get over some cognitive dissonances with the help of religious beliefs while other individuals may accumulate even more cognitive dissonances through religious beliefs.Tutareture wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:54 am what are some of the 'wrong'beliefs of mainstream mahayana,where one would choose theravada over it?and how do you prove these are wrong to a mahayanist?
So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?
Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?
Correct. I studied buddhist doctrine without believing anything of it. So buddhism can be an object of investigation and is not necessarily belief.
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?
The idea of the bodhisatta vow where they vow to not enter nirvana until everyone else does. that creates a paradox where nobody enters because everyone is waiting for everyone else to enter. "No, you first." "No, you first." "No, you first." etc. etc.Tutareture wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:54 am what are some of the 'wrong'beliefs of mainstream mahayana,where one would choose theravada over it?and how do you prove these are wrong to a mahayanist?
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?
Most people who practice Mahayana don't understand Mahayana to begin with.josaphatbarlaam wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:18 pmMost people who teach Mahayana don’t understand Mahayana to begin with.
Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?
Most people who practice and teach Buddhism don't understand Buddhism to begin with...
In other news, eight out of ten cats think that the "problem" with Mahāyāna, from a Theravāda POV, aside from sūtras of dubious origins, odd doctrines, foreign Buddhas, is that it teaches a different path. The six perfections are similar to the paramis, but aren't the same. The bodhisattva bhūmis are similar to the śrāvaka stations of the path, but not too similar. Etc., etc.
This brings up another issue with the Mahāyāna which the Śrāvaka might critique: it is impossible from a Theravādin, and also from a Sarvāstivādin (etc. listing early schools) POV. It is impossible to be fully awakened at the level of an Arhat or beyond and also return to saṃsāra. The causes and conditions for birth in the three realms have been cut off.
In other news, eight out of ten cats think that the "problem" with Mahāyāna, from a Theravāda POV, aside from sūtras of dubious origins, odd doctrines, foreign Buddhas, is that it teaches a different path. The six perfections are similar to the paramis, but aren't the same. The bodhisattva bhūmis are similar to the śrāvaka stations of the path, but not too similar. Etc., etc.
This is a common misconception. The Āryabodhisattva avoids entering into parinirvāṇa until others have been saved. They don't postpone Bodhi, which would be very stupid indeed.josaphatbarlaam wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:17 pmThe idea of the bodhisatta vow where they vow to not enter nirvana until everyone else does. that creates a paradox where nobody enters because everyone is waiting for everyone else to enter. "No, you first." "No, you first." "No, you first." etc. etc.
This brings up another issue with the Mahāyāna which the Śrāvaka might critique: it is impossible from a Theravādin, and also from a Sarvāstivādin (etc. listing early schools) POV. It is impossible to be fully awakened at the level of an Arhat or beyond and also return to saṃsāra. The causes and conditions for birth in the three realms have been cut off.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?
Not "others" but "all others" which means they will be waiting forever because that will never happen. Plus there is a messiah complex in vowing that they themselves will save all beings.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:36 pmThis is a common misconception. The Āryabodhisattva avoids entering into parinirvāṇa until others have been saved.josaphatbarlaam wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:17 pmThe idea of the bodhisatta vow where they vow to not enter nirvana until everyone else does. that creates a paradox where nobody enters because everyone is waiting for everyone else to enter. "No, you first." "No, you first." "No, you first." etc. etc.
Its not possible per Theravada to have reached bodhi and die without entering parinirvana. So the misconception is Mahayana's.
Right so you are aware of what I just said. But more than that, those claiming to have done that are claiming it in order to gain worldly advantage. Its just a setup for a charlatan factory of lamas who claim to be fully enlightened so they can trick women to sleep with them, as you see in so many sex scandals of lamas. And so they can have private helicopters etc. etc.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:36 pmThis brings up another issue with the Mahāyāna which the Śrāvaka might critique: it is impossible from a Theravāda, but also a Sarvāstivāda etc. POV. It is impossible to be fully awakened at the level of an Arhat or beyond and also return to saṃsāra. The causes and conditions for birth in the three realms have been cut off.
Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?
Perhaps most Mahayana people do not practice Mahayana the same way many Theravada people do not understand and follow it.Mr. Seek wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:26 pmMost people who practice Mahayana don't understand Mahayana to begin with.josaphatbarlaam wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:18 pmMost people who teach Mahayana don’t understand Mahayana to begin with.
I have listened to many Mahayana monks and their teachings are excellent.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?
No. This is a common misconception. If this common misconception is dear to your heart, far be it from me to disenchant you of the point that you feel you've made.josaphatbarlaam wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:51 pmNot "others" but "all others" which means they will be waiting forever because that will never happen.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:36 pmThis is a common misconception. The Āryabodhisattva avoids entering into parinirvāṇa until others have been saved.josaphatbarlaam wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:17 pmThe idea of the bodhisatta vow where they vow to not enter nirvana until everyone else does. that creates a paradox where nobody enters because everyone is waiting for everyone else to enter. "No, you first." "No, you first." "No, you first." etc. etc.
The rest of the tripe you posted about lama sex theories etc. is far too ripe for me to be bothering myself with addressing it. Lama is a Tibetan word and guruyoga is Vajrayāna. You have a narrative that appeals to you. Enjoy it.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?
waste of time and opportunity
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?
With all due respect, the scholar of Buddhism Jan Nattier has pointed out, in her excellent study of the Ugraparipṛcchā Sūtra "A Few Good Men", that the idea that Bodhisattvas deliberately delay their enlightenment as Buddhas seems to have been a later development - and even has been inserted into texts by later commentators. Originally, the only enlightenment within the Bodhisattva's path that would be in any way avoided was the Arhat's - and that was not through delay but rather through not practising for arhatship at all. Enlightenment as a Buddha was originally conceptualized as being so strenuous that it could not be delayed - rather, it would happen kalpas/kappas in the future after merit accumulation and cultivation of the perfections.josaphatbarlaam wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:51 pmNot "others" but "all others" which means they will be waiting forever because that will never happen. Plus there is a messiah complex in vowing that they themselves will save all beings.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:36 pmThis is a common misconception. The Āryabodhisattva avoids entering into parinirvāṇa until others have been saved.josaphatbarlaam wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:17 pmThe idea of the bodhisatta vow where they vow to not enter nirvana until everyone else does. that creates a paradox where nobody enters because everyone is waiting for everyone else to enter. "No, you first." "No, you first." "No, you first." etc. etc.
Its not possible per Theravada to have reached bodhi and die without entering parinirvana. So the misconception is Mahayana's.
Right so you are aware of what I just said. But more than that, those claiming to have done that are claiming it in order to gain worldly advantage. Its just a setup for a charlatan factory of lamas who claim to be fully enlightened so they can trick women to sleep with them, as you see in so many sex scandals of lamas. And so they can have private helicopters etc. etc.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:36 pmThis brings up another issue with the Mahāyāna which the Śrāvaka might critique: it is impossible from a Theravāda, but also a Sarvāstivāda etc. POV. It is impossible to be fully awakened at the level of an Arhat or beyond and also return to saṃsāra. The causes and conditions for birth in the three realms have been cut off.
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?
What does Mahayana realistically have but Tibetanism? Zen is its own rather weird thing, a love of paradox and denialism, whatever the student believs the Zen "master" says "no that's false" until he creates despair, causing them to crack and then calling that cracked mental state "enlightenment." It may have developed from Mahayana, but its not Mahayana. SGI or similar Lotus Sutra cultists who reject all other Mahayana Sutras also can't truly claim the Mahayana mantle. What is left but Tibetanism to be called Mahayana?
Well of course its a latter idea....its Mahayana.4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:00 pm With all due respect, the scholar of Buddhism Jan Nattier has pointed out, in her excellent study of the Ugraparipṛcchā Sūtra "A Few Good Men", that the idea that Bodhisattvas deliberately delay their enlightenment as Buddhas seems to have been a later development - and even has been inserted into texts by later commentators.
Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?
"Tibetanism." I'm sorry, but I don't have to talk to you, and I am choosing to exercise that freedom.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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- Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:03 pm