So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SteRo
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by SteRo »

Tutareture wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:54 am what are some of the 'wrong'beliefs of mainstream mahayana,where one would choose theravada over it?and how do you prove these are wrong to a mahayanist?
Are some religions wrong and other religions right? Beliefs are just beliefs. Some individuals may get over some cognitive dissonances with the help of religious beliefs while other individuals may accumulate even more cognitive dissonances through religious beliefs. :shrug:
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by cappuccino »

SteRo wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:00 pm Beliefs are just beliefs.
Buddhism is not beliefs
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by SteRo »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:05 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:00 pm Beliefs are just beliefs.
Buddhism is not beliefs
Correct. I studied buddhist doctrine without believing anything of it. So buddhism can be an object of investigation and is not necessarily belief.
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josaphatbarlaam
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

Tutareture wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:54 am what are some of the 'wrong'beliefs of mainstream mahayana,where one would choose theravada over it?and how do you prove these are wrong to a mahayanist?
The idea of the bodhisatta vow where they vow to not enter nirvana until everyone else does. that creates a paradox where nobody enters because everyone is waiting for everyone else to enter. "No, you first." "No, you first." "No, you first." etc. etc.
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:57 pm Most people who criticise Mahayana don’t understand Mahayana to begin with.
Most people who teach Mahayana don’t understand Mahayana to begin with.
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Mr. Seek »

josaphatbarlaam wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:18 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:57 pm Most people who criticise Mahayana don’t understand Mahayana to begin with.
Most people who teach Mahayana don’t understand Mahayana to begin with.
Most people who practice Mahayana don't understand Mahayana to begin with.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Most people who practice and teach Buddhism don't understand Buddhism to begin with...

In other news, eight out of ten cats think that the "problem" with Mahāyāna, from a Theravāda POV, aside from sūtras of dubious origins, odd doctrines, foreign Buddhas, is that it teaches a different path. The six perfections are similar to the paramis, but aren't the same. The bodhisattva bhūmis are similar to the śrāvaka stations of the path, but not too similar. Etc., etc.
josaphatbarlaam wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:17 pmThe idea of the bodhisatta vow where they vow to not enter nirvana until everyone else does. that creates a paradox where nobody enters because everyone is waiting for everyone else to enter. "No, you first." "No, you first." "No, you first." etc. etc.
This is a common misconception. The Āryabodhisattva avoids entering into parinirvāṇa until others have been saved. They don't postpone Bodhi, which would be very stupid indeed.

This brings up another issue with the Mahāyāna which the Śrāvaka might critique: it is impossible from a Theravādin, and also from a Sarvāstivādin (etc. listing early schools) POV. It is impossible to be fully awakened at the level of an Arhat or beyond and also return to saṃsāra. The causes and conditions for birth in the three realms have been cut off.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
josaphatbarlaam
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:36 pm
josaphatbarlaam wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:17 pmThe idea of the bodhisatta vow where they vow to not enter nirvana until everyone else does. that creates a paradox where nobody enters because everyone is waiting for everyone else to enter. "No, you first." "No, you first." "No, you first." etc. etc.
This is a common misconception. The Āryabodhisattva avoids entering into parinirvāṇa until others have been saved.
Not "others" but "all others" which means they will be waiting forever because that will never happen. Plus there is a messiah complex in vowing that they themselves will save all beings.
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:36 pm They don't postpone Bodhi, which would be very stupid indeed.
Its not possible per Theravada to have reached bodhi and die without entering parinirvana. So the misconception is Mahayana's.
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:36 pmThis brings up another issue with the Mahāyāna which the Śrāvaka might critique: it is impossible from a Theravāda, but also a Sarvāstivāda etc. POV. It is impossible to be fully awakened at the level of an Arhat or beyond and also return to saṃsāra. The causes and conditions for birth in the three realms have been cut off.
Right so you are aware of what I just said. But more than that, those claiming to have done that are claiming it in order to gain worldly advantage. Its just a setup for a charlatan factory of lamas who claim to be fully enlightened so they can trick women to sleep with them, as you see in so many sex scandals of lamas. And so they can have private helicopters etc. etc.
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by SarathW »

Mr. Seek wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:26 pm
josaphatbarlaam wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:18 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:57 pm Most people who criticise Mahayana don’t understand Mahayana to begin with.
Most people who teach Mahayana don’t understand Mahayana to begin with.
Most people who practice Mahayana don't understand Mahayana to begin with.
Perhaps most Mahayana people do not practice Mahayana the same way many Theravada people do not understand and follow it.
I have listened to many Mahayana monks and their teachings are excellent.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

josaphatbarlaam wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:51 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:36 pm
josaphatbarlaam wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:17 pmThe idea of the bodhisatta vow where they vow to not enter nirvana until everyone else does. that creates a paradox where nobody enters because everyone is waiting for everyone else to enter. "No, you first." "No, you first." "No, you first." etc. etc.
This is a common misconception. The Āryabodhisattva avoids entering into parinirvāṇa until others have been saved.
Not "others" but "all others" which means they will be waiting forever because that will never happen.
No. This is a common misconception. If this common misconception is dear to your heart, far be it from me to disenchant you of the point that you feel you've made.

The rest of the tripe you posted about lama sex theories etc. is far too ripe for me to be bothering myself with addressing it. Lama is a Tibetan word and guruyoga is Vajrayāna. You have a narrative that appeals to you. Enjoy it.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by cappuccino »

SteRo wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:53 pm Correct. I studied buddhist doctrine without believing anything of it. So
waste of time and opportunity
4GreatHeavenlyKings
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

josaphatbarlaam wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:51 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:36 pm
josaphatbarlaam wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:17 pmThe idea of the bodhisatta vow where they vow to not enter nirvana until everyone else does. that creates a paradox where nobody enters because everyone is waiting for everyone else to enter. "No, you first." "No, you first." "No, you first." etc. etc.
This is a common misconception. The Āryabodhisattva avoids entering into parinirvāṇa until others have been saved.
Not "others" but "all others" which means they will be waiting forever because that will never happen. Plus there is a messiah complex in vowing that they themselves will save all beings.
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:36 pm They don't postpone Bodhi, which would be very stupid indeed.
Its not possible per Theravada to have reached bodhi and die without entering parinirvana. So the misconception is Mahayana's.
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:36 pmThis brings up another issue with the Mahāyāna which the Śrāvaka might critique: it is impossible from a Theravāda, but also a Sarvāstivāda etc. POV. It is impossible to be fully awakened at the level of an Arhat or beyond and also return to saṃsāra. The causes and conditions for birth in the three realms have been cut off.
Right so you are aware of what I just said. But more than that, those claiming to have done that are claiming it in order to gain worldly advantage. Its just a setup for a charlatan factory of lamas who claim to be fully enlightened so they can trick women to sleep with them, as you see in so many sex scandals of lamas. And so they can have private helicopters etc. etc.
With all due respect, the scholar of Buddhism Jan Nattier has pointed out, in her excellent study of the Ugraparipṛcchā Sūtra "A Few Good Men", that the idea that Bodhisattvas deliberately delay their enlightenment as Buddhas seems to have been a later development - and even has been inserted into texts by later commentators. Originally, the only enlightenment within the Bodhisattva's path that would be in any way avoided was the Arhat's - and that was not through delay but rather through not practising for arhatship at all. Enlightenment as a Buddha was originally conceptualized as being so strenuous that it could not be delayed - rather, it would happen kalpas/kappas in the future after merit accumulation and cultivation of the perfections.
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:20 pm Lama is a Tibetan word and guruyoga is Vajrayāna. You have a narrative that appeals to you. Enjoy it.
What does Mahayana realistically have but Tibetanism? Zen is its own rather weird thing, a love of paradox and denialism, whatever the student believs the Zen "master" says "no that's false" until he creates despair, causing them to crack and then calling that cracked mental state "enlightenment." It may have developed from Mahayana, but its not Mahayana. SGI or similar Lotus Sutra cultists who reject all other Mahayana Sutras also can't truly claim the Mahayana mantle. What is left but Tibetanism to be called Mahayana?
4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:00 pm With all due respect, the scholar of Buddhism Jan Nattier has pointed out, in her excellent study of the Ugraparipṛcchā Sūtra "A Few Good Men", that the idea that Bodhisattvas deliberately delay their enlightenment as Buddhas seems to have been a later development - and even has been inserted into texts by later commentators.
Well of course its a latter idea....its Mahayana.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

"Tibetanism." I'm sorry, but I don't have to talk to you, and I am choosing to exercise that freedom.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
josaphatbarlaam
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:19 pm "Tibetanism." I'm sorry, but I don't have to talk to you, and I am choosing to exercise that freedom.
You seemed to be against Tibetanism but now you're its defender. So you concede that realistically there is no other Mahayana than it.
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