So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

No, I don't. That's stupid. Your characterization of my response is stupid. I'm not defending Tibetan Buddhism. Desist in talking to me concerning your conspiracy theory that I am a defender of Tibetan religion of any sort.

Continue to believe that "Tibetanism" is the true essence of Mahāyāna. I don't care what you think. Do not misrepresent me as conceding that which I've not conceded. I can refuse to discuss with you further and you can still be wrong. The two are not mutually exclusive.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
4GreatHeavenlyKings
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

josaphatbarlaam wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:15 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:20 pm Lama is a Tibetan word and guruyoga is Vajrayāna. You have a narrative that appeals to you. Enjoy it.
What does Mahayana realistically have but Tibetanism? Zen is its own rather weird thing, a love of paradox and denialism, whatever the student believs the Zen "master" says "no that's false" until he creates despair, causing them to crack and then calling that cracked mental state "enlightenment." It may have developed from Mahayana, but its not Mahayana. SGI or similar Lotus Sutra cultists who reject all other Mahayana Sutras also can't truly claim the Mahayana mantle. What is left but Tibetanism to be called Mahayana?
4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:00 pm With all due respect, the scholar of Buddhism Jan Nattier has pointed out, in her excellent study of the Ugraparipṛcchā Sūtra "A Few Good Men", that the idea that Bodhisattvas deliberately delay their enlightenment as Buddhas seems to have been a later development - and even has been inserted into texts by later commentators.
Well of course its a latter idea....its Mahayana.
With all due respect, even I, a great condemner of both the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's interpretation of it (to say nothing of related movements such as SGI), do not assert that they reject all sutras not the Lotus Sutra. They just regard them as much less significant - an outgrowth of the Cult of the Book that is another disturbing feature of Mahayana Buddhism.

Furthermore there are other Mayahana Buddhist traditions, such as Pure Land and Tientai.

And although I agree with you that the idea that Bodhisattvas deliberately delay their enlightenment as Buddhas seems to have been a later development, the point is that there are different layers of Mahayana Buddhism responding to different ideas - and even to other Mahayana Buddhist texts. Thus, although earlier Mahayana Buddhism taught that the Bodhisattva's path was long and arduous, later Mahayana Buddhism increasingly taught that the Bodhisattva's path was easy - although the Lotus Sutra seems to have been a relatively early proponent of an extreme form of the idea that the Bodhisattva's path is easy.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

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4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:13 pm[...] although the Lotus Sutra seems to have been a relatively early proponent of an extreme form of the idea that the Bodhisattva's path is easy.
This is in tension with Nichiren's persecution complex, as well as various materials from the LS itself stating that its votaries will be ruthlessly persecuted and suffer great hardships. I'm not saying you're wrong. The LS is used to "shorten the path," contemporary Tendai is obsessed with path-shortening, but the bodhisattvayāna taught within it is IMO rather conservative when compared against what various exegetes will read "out" of the LS text.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
4GreatHeavenlyKings
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:18 pm
4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:13 pm[...] although the Lotus Sutra seems to have been a relatively early proponent of an extreme form of the idea that the Bodhisattva's path is easy.
This is in tension with Nichiren's persecution complex, as well as various materials from the LS itself stating that its votaries will be ruthlessly persecuted and suffer great hardships. I'm not saying you're wrong. The LS is used to "shorten the path," contemporary Tendai is obsessed with path-shortening, but the bodhisattvayāna taught within it is IMO rather conservative when compared against what various exegetes will read "out" of the LS text.
By "extreme form of the idea that the Bodhisattva's path is easy", I refer not to material comfort and lack of persecution, but rather to its claim that all sentient beings will eventually become Buddhas. This is a far cry from other Mahayana Buddhist texts (especially from the approximate time of the Lotus Sutra's origins), which present Buddhahood as something that the Bodhisattva must strive to do. See, also, the Lotus Sutra's claim that even Arhats will become Buddhas - another contrast from Mahayana Sutras presenting the aspiring Arhats and the aspiring Buddhas as pursuing mutually exclusive paths.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:18 pm[...]the bodhisattvayāna taught within it is IMO rather conservative when compared against what various exegetes will read "out" of the LS text.
An example of what various exegeges will "read out of" the Lotus Sūtra is the notion that "The Lotus Sūtra is a feminist text."

This is ubiquitous on the internet. "The Lotus Sūtra is sooooo feminist."

Actually, the LS is a conservative text that tows the standard old-fasioned status quo, that 1) women cannot be Buddhas, and that 2) in order for a "woman" to become a Buddha, she must first be a man.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:25 pmSee, also, the Lotus Sutra's claim that even Arhats will become Buddhas - another contrast from Mahayana Sutras presenting the aspiring Arhats and the aspiring Buddhas as pursuing mutually exclusive paths.
Fair enough. The LS does make the claim that bodhisattvayāna is the eventual destiny of all Arhats, an extreme and audacious point for a Mahāyāna sūtra that begs the question of "Is an Arhat a Buddha at all?"
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
4GreatHeavenlyKings
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:30 pm The LS does make the claim that bodhisattvayāna is the eventual destiny of all Arhats, an extreme and audacious point for a Mahāyāna sūtra that begs the question of "Is an Arhat a Buddha at all?"
Why? Arhats, within the Lotus Sutra, are presented as inferior to Buddhas who will become Buddhas. There remains a distinction between Buddhas and Arhats.
josaphatbarlaam
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:13 pm With all due respect, even I, a great condemner of both the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's interpretation of it (to say nothing of related movements such as SGI), do not assert that they reject all sutras not the Lotus Sutra. They just regard them as much less significant - an outgrowth of the Cult of the Book that is another disturbing feature of Mahayana Buddhism.
Ah yes, I confused SGI with Nichiren himself since I read some of his writings. Nichiren said one must go by Lotus Sutra only and that all other sutras were skillful means that were only acceptable prior to Lotus Sutra being given but afterwards will damn one to the lowest hell if they follow it and he especially said this of Pureland. But his followers have laxed on that perhaps to fit in better with other Buddhists. Nichiren also called for beheading all other Buddhists, which they don't call for nowdays.
4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:13 pm Furthermore there are other Mayahana Buddhist traditions, such as Pure Land and Tientai.
I would argue that Pureland is not Mahayana but like Zen developed out of it and yet became its own thing altogether. In the end Pureland is a rejection of Mayahana in favor of just the nembutsu alone. And Tientai is so small and localized that it might as well not be included in the discussion.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:53 pmArhats, within the Lotus Sutra, are presented as inferior to Buddhas who will become Buddhas. There remains a distinction between Buddhas and Arhats.
Of course. That's why 500 Arhats, a number suspiciously identical to the mytho-historical number of Arhats behind the first redaction of the Buddha's sūtras, left the assembly in protest while Gautama Buddha supposedly preached it. The narrative is that they also missed the Nirvāṇa Sūtra. It is a sectarian text.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:57 pm Most people who criticise Mahayana don’t understand Mahayana to begin with.
:goodpost:

There's a lot of sectarian rhetoric involved.
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form
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

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Yesterday I briefly watched a documentary on how Buddhism integrated with other belief system like shamanism, original Taoism. The researchers believe there were very early Chinese and Indian cultural exchange. Visitors from both sides cross over the border to preach and brought back the Influence from the other side. Such interactions will cause a religion to evolve.
Last edited by form on Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

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form wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:27 pm Yesterday I briefly watched a documentary on how Buddhism integrated with other belief system like shamanism, original Taoism. The researchers believe there are very early Chinese and Indian cultural exchange. Visitors from both sides cross over the border to preach and brought back the I from the other side. Such interactions will cause a religion to evolve.
*change
Spiny Norman
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Mr. Seek wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:54 am It's complicated because Mahayana is a movement while Theravada is a sect. One is broad and contains many different sects, while the other is a sect.
I think Mahayana is more diverse than Theravada, though both contain different schools.
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

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cappuccino wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:40 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:53 pm Correct. I studied buddhist doctrine without believing anything of it. So buddhism can be an object of investigation and is not necessarily belief.
waste of time and opportunity
Science is never a waste of time and objects of investigation are opportunities ... for the scientist at least.
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Re: So whats 'wrong' with Mahayana?

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

SteRo wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:46 am
cappuccino wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:40 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:53 pm Correct. I studied buddhist doctrine without believing anything of it. So buddhism can be an object of investigation and is not necessarily belief.
waste of time and opportunity
Science is never a waste of time and objects of investigation are opportunities ... for the scientist at least.
Lol. Trust the science.
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