After Buddhism is added with other religious components

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: After Buddhism is added with other religious components

Post by Ceisiwr »

Dan74 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:02 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:30 pm
Dan74 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:27 pm

The Gatha of Seng Tsan? Which parts were more like Taoism?
What I just quoted.
You're not being very transparent here. What exactly is like Taoism? Way? Not difficult?? You did read past the first line, right? (and there are other translations that sound quite different).
Taoism also talks of the "Great Way", and I believe this work is generally acknowledged to make use of Taoist concepts.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: After Buddhism is added with other religious components

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pretty much any single-character Chinese Buddhist term is also a Dàoist concept. This includes words like unconditioned 無為, emptiness 空/虛, path 道, etc. Why? Dàoism is a Chinese religion. When early Buddhist missionaries translated terms and ideas into Chinese, they necessarily used words already used in Dàoism. They couldn't help but do so. The word "meditation," before the 1900s, had largely Christian contemplative overtones, if I'm not mistaken. The word "meditation" also means "to mull something over in your head" in this earlier usage, and in many ways was a terrible fit for Buddhist "meditative" activity. Over time, the word has been able to drift closer to having a native Buddhist sense.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
josaphatbarlaam
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Re: After Buddhism is added with other religious components

Post by josaphatbarlaam »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:21 pmThe word "meditation," before the 1900s, had largely Christian contemplative overtones, if I'm not mistaken. The word "meditation" also means "to mull something over in your head" in this earlier usage, and in many ways was a terrible fit for Buddhist "meditative" activity.
The suttas have that kind of meditation on topics as well, like on impermanence, etc.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: After Buddhism is added with other religious components

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:21 pm Pretty much any single-character Chinese Buddhist term is also a Dàoist concept. This includes words like unconditioned 無為, emptiness 空/虛, path 道, etc. Why? Dàoism is a Chinese religion. When early Buddhist missionaries translated terms and ideas into Chinese, they necessarily used words already used in Dàoism. They couldn't help but do so. The word "meditation," before the 1900s, had largely Christian contemplative overtones, if I'm not mistaken. The word "meditation" also means "to mull something over in your head" in this earlier usage, and in many ways was a terrible fit for Buddhist "meditative" activity. Over time, the word has been able to drift closer to having a native Buddhist sense.
So you read dhyāna in the Chāndogyopaniṣad as the same as Buddhist dhyāna, rather than simply “meditation” then?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: After Buddhism is added with other religious components

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:05 pmSo you read dhyāna in the Chāndogyopaniṣad as the same as Buddhist dhyāna, rather than simply “meditation” then?
It is possible they refer to the 1st dhyāna and maybe beyond. I've never read the Chāndogyopaniṣad, so I don't know how it is to be read. It is possible they conceived of dhyāna as some kind of union with a god, for all I know.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: After Buddhism is added with other religious components

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:25 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:05 pmSo you read dhyāna in the Chāndogyopaniṣad as the same as Buddhist dhyāna, rather than simply “meditation” then?
It is possible they refer to the 1st dhyāna and maybe beyond. I've never read the Chāndogyopaniṣad, so I don't know how it is to be read. It is possible they conceived of dhyāna as some kind of union with a god, for all I know.
You should. It’s a wonderful text. That and the Brhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad, apart from promotion of wife beating and rape of course :(
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
SteRo
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Re: After Buddhism is added with other religious components

Post by SteRo »

I'd suggest to remove all religious components but not to add further.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Dan74
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Re: After Buddhism is added with other religious components

Post by Dan74 »

SteRo wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:47 am I'd suggest to remove all religious components but not to add further.
Religious components, as you call them, are skilful means. Sentient beings need them, you know.
_/|\_
mabw
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Re: After Buddhism is added with other religious components

Post by mabw »

If you can make the human mind static, frozen like an exhibit in a museum, then yeah, you stand a chance.
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Re: After Buddhism is added with other religious components

Post by SteRo »

Dan74 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:10 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:47 am I'd suggest to remove all religious components but not to add further.
Religious components, as you call them, are skilful means. Sentient beings need them, you know.
If your understanding of "sentient beings" is "humans" (what other "beings" would you be able to refer to in the context of religion?) then evidence disproves your general claim.
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Re: After Buddhism is added with other religious components

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SteRo wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:47 am I'd suggest to remove all religious components but not to add further.
I actually like the idea but I am fearful of those consequences for doing that as mentioned in the suttas.
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Re: After Buddhism is added with other religious components

Post by SteRo »

form wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:37 am
SteRo wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:47 am I'd suggest to remove all religious components but not to add further.
I actually like the idea but I am fearful of those consequences for doing that as mentioned in the suttas.
Once one has settled down in a home of religious views then the idea of a homeless life might appear fearsome.
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Re: After Buddhism is added with other religious components

Post by Spiny Norman »

form wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:17 am Or even merge in 50/50 proportion, is it still Buddhism?
Do you mean mixing Buddhism with Christianity or Paganism, for example? I've come across people doing this, but it generally looks like an uncomfortable mix, particularly with a Buddhist focus on anatta/shunyata.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Dan74
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Re: After Buddhism is added with other religious components

Post by Dan74 »

SteRo wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:00 am
Dan74 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:10 pm
SteRo wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:47 am I'd suggest to remove all religious components but not to add further.
Religious components, as you call them, are skilful means. Sentient beings need them, you know.
If your understanding of "sentient beings" is "humans" (what other "beings" would you be able to refer to in the context of religion?) then evidence disproves your general claim.
The evidence I've observed as part of my Buddhist practice and those of fellow religious practitioners, has supported my claim.
_/|\_
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Re: After Buddhism is added with other religious components

Post by un8- »

form wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:17 am Or even merge in 50/50 proportion, is it still Buddhism?
No. That's why counterfeit dhamma doesn't lead to anything.

The Buddha said the True Dhamma is perfect and complete, if you add or remove from it then you don't have right view.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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