Jhāna according to the Śvetāśvataropaniṣad

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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Jhāna according to the Śvetāśvataropaniṣad

Post by Ceisiwr »

An interesting section of the Shvetashvatara Upanishad which is describing the experience of Jhāna through the lens of the Upanishadic tradition, according to those who subscribe to an absorbed model of the attainment.
8 When he keeps his body straight, with the three sections erect, and draws the senses together with the mind into his heart, a wise man shall cross all the frightful rivers with the boat consisting of that formulation (brahman).

9 Compressing his breaths in here and curbing his movements, a man should exhale through one nostril when his breath is exhausted. A wise man should keep his mind vigilantly under control, just as he would that wagon yoked to unruly horses.

10 Level and clean; free of gravel, fire, and sand; near noiseless running waters and the like; pleasing to the mind but not offensive to the eye; provided with a cave or a nook sheltered from the wind—in such a spot should one engage in yogic practice.

11 When yoga is being performed, the forms that come first, producing apparitions in Brahman, are those of misty smoke, sun, fire, wind, fire-flies, lightnings, and a crystal moon.

12 When earth, water, fire, air, and ether have arisen together, and the body made up of these five becomes equipped with the attribute of yoga, that man, obtaining a body tempered by the fire of yoga, will no longer experience sickness, old age, or suffering.

13 Lightness, health, the absence of greed, a bright complexion, a pleasant voice, a sweet smell, and very little faeces and urine—that, they say, is the first working of yogic practice.

14 Just as a disk smeared with clay, once it is cleaned well, shines brightly, so also an embodied person, once he has perceived the true nature of the self, becomes solitary, his goal attained and free from sorrow.

15 When, by means of the true nature of the self, which resembles a lamp, a man practicing yogic restraint sees here the true nature of brahman, he is freed from all fetters, because he has known God, unborn, unchanging, and unsullied by all objects.
Notice that even here for the Rishis the experience of a bliss apart from the senses was enough to cut of lust for them.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Pondera
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Re: Jhāna according to the Śvetāśvataropaniṣad

Post by Pondera »

The meat and potatoes of the practice seem to be described here
8 When he keeps his body straight, with the three sections erect, and draws the senses together with the mind into his heart, a wise man shall cross all the frightful rivers with the boat consisting of that formulation (brahman).
I’ve never heard jhana proposed in such a fashion. Have you?
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhāna according to the Śvetāśvataropaniṣad

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:42 am The meat and potatoes of the practice seem to be described here
8 When he keeps his body straight, with the three sections erect, and draws the senses together with the mind into his heart, a wise man shall cross all the frightful rivers with the boat consisting of that formulation (brahman).
I’ve never heard jhana proposed in such a fashion. Have you?
Apart from the Brahman bit, yes.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Pondera
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Re: Jhāna according to the Śvetāśvataropaniṣad

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:17 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:42 am The meat and potatoes of the practice seem to be described here
8 When he keeps his body straight, with the three sections erect, and draws the senses together with the mind into his heart, a wise man shall cross all the frightful rivers with the boat consisting of that formulation (brahman).
I’ve never heard jhana proposed in such a fashion. Have you?
Apart from the Brahman bit, yes.
So, you’re certain; 100 % certain - that Jhana has been explained this way (apart from the Brahman bit)?
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhāna according to the Śvetāśvataropaniṣad

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:36 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:17 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:42 am The meat and potatoes of the practice seem to be described here



I’ve never heard jhana proposed in such a fashion. Have you?
Apart from the Brahman bit, yes.
So, you’re certain; 100 % certain - that Jhana has been explained this way (apart from the Brahman bit)?
Yes. To turn away from the senses.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Pondera
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Re: Jhāna according to the Śvetāśvataropaniṣad

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:50 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:36 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:17 am

Apart from the Brahman bit, yes.
So, you’re certain; 100 % certain - that Jhana has been explained this way (apart from the Brahman bit)?
Yes. To turn away from the senses.
Oh really? I’m sceptical 🤔
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Jhāna according to the Śvetāśvataropaniṣad

Post by confusedlayman »

hard jhana or ajhan brahm jhana or vism jhana (all are same I think) is the real one.

may be Frankk should go to Australia retreat and learn it...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
BrokenBones
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Re: Jhāna according to the Śvetāśvataropaniṣad

Post by BrokenBones »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:48 am hard jhana or ajhan brahm jhana or vism jhana (all are same I think) is the real one.

may be Frankk should go to Australia retreat and learn it...
I think your username is well founded.


As for the thread... it does not surprise me that the jhana found in the Upanishads has many similarities to the Vism./ajahn Brahm/hard jhana... they probably have similar destinations.
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Re: Jhāna according to the Śvetāśvataropaniṣad

Post by SteRo »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:06 am ...
...
14 Just as a disk smeared with clay, once it is cleaned well, shines brightly, so also an embodied person, once he has perceived the true nature of the self, becomes solitary, his goal attained and free from sorrow.

15 When, by means of the true nature of the self, which resembles a lamp, a man practicing yogic restraint sees here the true nature ...
...
If the "brahman" thing is skipped one arrives at a common view in mahayana.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
Spiny Norman
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Re: Jhāna according to the Śvetāśvataropaniṣad

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:06 am An interesting section of the Shvetashvatara Upanishad which is describing the experience of Jhāna through the lens of the Upanishadic tradition, according to those who subscribe to an absorbed model of the attainment.
8 When he keeps his body straight, with the three sections erect, and draws the senses together with the mind into his heart, a wise man shall cross all the frightful rivers with the boat consisting of that formulation (brahman).

9 Compressing his breaths in here and curbing his movements, a man should exhale through one nostril when his breath is exhausted. A wise man should keep his mind vigilantly under control, just as he would that wagon yoked to unruly horses.

10 Level and clean; free of gravel, fire, and sand; near noiseless running waters and the like; pleasing to the mind but not offensive to the eye; provided with a cave or a nook sheltered from the wind—in such a spot should one engage in yogic practice.

11 When yoga is being performed, the forms that come first, producing apparitions in Brahman, are those of misty smoke, sun, fire, wind, fire-flies, lightnings, and a crystal moon.

12 When earth, water, fire, air, and ether have arisen together, and the body made up of these five becomes equipped with the attribute of yoga, that man, obtaining a body tempered by the fire of yoga, will no longer experience sickness, old age, or suffering.

13 Lightness, health, the absence of greed, a bright complexion, a pleasant voice, a sweet smell, and very little faeces and urine—that, they say, is the first working of yogic practice.

14 Just as a disk smeared with clay, once it is cleaned well, shines brightly, so also an embodied person, once he has perceived the true nature of the self, becomes solitary, his goal attained and free from sorrow.

15 When, by means of the true nature of the self, which resembles a lamp, a man practicing yogic restraint sees here the true nature of brahman, he is freed from all fetters, because he has known God, unborn, unchanging, and unsullied by all objects.
Notice that even here for the Rishis the experience of a bliss apart from the senses was enough to cut of lust for them.
Yes, there are similarities. The main difference I see is how these blissful states are explained, the assumptions behind the experience.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
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Re: Jhāna according to the Śvetāśvataropaniṣad

Post by Spiny Norman »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:12 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:48 am hard jhana or ajhan brahm jhana or vism jhana (all are same I think) is the real one.

may be Frankk should go to Australia retreat and learn it...
I think your username is well founded.


As for the thread... it does not surprise me that the jhana found in the Upanishads has many similarities to the Vism./ajahn Brahm/hard jhana... they probably have similar destinations.
I think the assumed destinations are quite different though. Atman v. anatta.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
BrokenBones
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Re: Jhāna according to the Śvetāśvataropaniṣad

Post by BrokenBones »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:29 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:12 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:48 am hard jhana or ajhan brahm jhana or vism jhana (all are same I think) is the real one.

may be Frankk should go to Australia retreat and learn it...
I think your username is well founded.


As for the thread... it does not surprise me that the jhana found in the Upanishads has many similarities to the Vism./ajahn Brahm/hard jhana... they probably have similar destinations.
I think the assumed destinations are quite different though. Atman v. anatta.
Agreed.

Assumptions are just unexamined beliefs.
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SilaSamadhi8
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Re: Jhāna according to the Śvetāśvataropaniṣad

Post by SilaSamadhi8 »

Thank you for this sharing this,

I find it interesting that aside from the brahmam bit this seems to be inline with what's taught in the Commentaries.
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