I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Tutareture
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2020 3:08 am

I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by Tutareture »

title.I need good buddhist arguments against the abrahamic conception of God or God in general.I heard about Gunapala Dharmasiri's Buddhist Critique of the Christian Concept of God but I can't get my hands on it.Abrahamic theism is really suffocating my personal life,as I am LGBT and I can't live out my full identity and I can hardly enjoy life as it is with all the rules.

here are some bad arguments I usually here from nontheists:
the existance of suffering,when suffering can be tolerated for a future good and the omnipotence paradox,when omnipotence to a christian or muslim is all power there is not power wich is illogical.

I need clear cut logical arguments or metaphysical proof.
אַל-תְּהִי צַדִּיק הַרְבֵּה, וְאַל-תִּתְחַכַּם יוֹתֵר: לָמָּה, תִּשּׁוֹמֵם. Be not righteous overmuch; neither make thyself overwise; why shouldest thou destroy thyself? -Ecclesiastes 7:16
SarathW
Posts: 21234
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by SarathW »

In Buddhism, we talk about Deva (gods) Brahma, etc as well.
However, Buddhism does not talk about a creator God or punishing and rewarding God.
Instead, Buddhism teaches Kamma and Vipaka (cause and effect)
Why it is different from punishing and rewarding God is due to the fact Kamma is only one of the five Niyama Dhamma.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
DiamondNgXZ
Posts: 390
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:40 am

Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Tutareture wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:36 am title.I need good buddhist arguments against the abrahamic conception of God or God in general.I heard about Gunapala Dharmasiri's Buddhist Critique of the Christian Concept of God but I can't get my hands on it.Abrahamic theism is really suffocating my personal life,as I am LGBT and I can't live out my full identity and I can hardly enjoy life as it is with all the rules.

here are some bad arguments I usually here from nontheists:
the existance of suffering,when suffering can be tolerated for a future good and the omnipotence paradox,when omnipotence to a christian or muslim is all power there is not power wich is illogical.

I need clear cut logical arguments or metaphysical proof.
It's not illogical to imagine everyone become arahants. It's not like creating a stone so heavy, God cannot lift it. Or drawing a square circle.

Arahants, the attainment of the end of suffering, is the end goal of Buddhism. Each individual has to strive for it for themselves, because the Buddha doesn't have the power to snap his finger and make everyone instant arahant. The Buddha can only teach, point the way, we have to walk the path ourselves. However, say if there's a God who's all powerful, he should by definition then have the ability to snap, instantly make everyone become an arahant. So why didn't he?

1. There's no all powerful God. Buddha's powers are the best already.
2. God doesn't know about arahants! So not all knowing. Then that being doesn't deserve the title God does he?
3. God is not all good. Wants people to suffer needlessly. Totally not worth worshipping.

So, this is the paradox of suffering explained in Buddhist terms, and thus we take it that there's no such thing as an all powerful, knowing, and good God.

Here's also some suttas which can help.

Explains how some human (prophets) misunderstood Maha Brahma as God.

https://suttacentral.net/dn1/en/sujato? ... ript=latin
There comes a time when, after a very long period has passed, this cosmos contracts. As the cosmos contracts, sentient beings are mostly headed for the realm of streaming radiance. There they are mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the sky, steadily glorious, and they remain like that for a very long time.

There comes a time when, after a very long period has passed, this cosmos expands. As it expands an empty mansion of Brahmā appears. Then a certain sentient being—due to the running out of their life-span or merit—passes away from that host of radiant deities and is reborn in that empty mansion of Brahmā. There they are mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the sky, steadily glorious, and they remain like that for a very long time.

But after staying there all alone for a long time, they become dissatisfied and anxious: ‘Oh, if only another being would come to this state of existence.’ Then other sentient beings—due to the running out of their life-span or merit—pass away from that host of radiant deities and are reborn in that empty mansion of Brahmā in company with that being. There they too are mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the sky, steadily glorious, and they remain like that for a very long time.

Now, the being who was reborn there first thinks: ‘I am Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Undefeated, the Champion, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord God, the Maker, the Author, the First, the Begetter, the Controller, the Father of those who have been born and those yet to be born. These beings were created by me! Why is that? Because first I thought:

“Oh, if only another being would come to this state of existence.” Such was my heart’s wish, and then these creatures came to this state of existence.’

And the beings who were reborn there later also think: ‘This must be Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Undefeated, the Champion, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord God, the Maker, the Author, the First, the Begetter, the Controller, the Father of those who have been born and those yet to be born. And we have been created by him. Why is that? Because we see that he was reborn here first, and we arrived later.’

And the being who was reborn first is more long-lived, beautiful, and illustrious than those who arrived later.

It’s possible that one of those beings passes away from that host and is reborn in this state of existence. Having done so, they go forth from the lay life to homelessness. By dint of keen, resolute, committed, and diligent effort, and right focus, they experience an immersion of the heart of such a kind that they recollect that past life, but no further.

They say: ‘He who is Brahmā—the Great Brahmā, the Undefeated, the Champion, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord God, the Maker, the Author, the First, the Begetter, the Controller, the Father of those who have been born and those yet to be born—is permanent, everlasting, eternal, imperishable, remaining the same for all eternity. We who were created by that Brahmā are impermanent, not lasting, short-lived, perishable, and have come to this state of existence. This is the first ground on which some ascetics and brahmins rely to assert that the self and the cosmos are partially eternal.

Here's a versus episode: Buddha vs Brahma Baka. Of course, Buddha won!

https://suttacentral.net/mn49/en/sujato ... ript=latin

Buddha explained how Brahma Baka lived for so long, he thought he's immortal.
https://suttacentral.net/sn6.4/en/sujat ... ript=latin
the Buddha said to him, “Alas, Baka the Brahmā is lost in ignorance! Alas, Baka the Brahmā is lost in ignorance! Because what is actually impermanent, not lasting, transient, incomplete, and perishable, he says is permanent, everlasting, eternal, complete, and imperishable. And where there is being born, growing old, dying, passing away, and being reborn, he says that there’s no being born, growing old, dying, passing away, or being reborn. And although there is another escape beyond this, he says that there’s no other escape beyond this.”

“Gotama, we seventy-two merit-makers are now wielders of power,
having passed beyond rebirth and old age.
This is our last rebirth as Brahmā, knowledge master.
And now many people pray to us.”

“But, Baka, the life span here is short, not long,
though you think it’s long.
I know that your life span
is two quinquadecillion years, Brahmā.”
DiamondNgXZ
Posts: 390
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:40 am

Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Add on:

If everything is due to God (like Calvinist's predestination doctrine, or Allah wills it, or God willing), then evil is due to God too.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/suja ... ript=latin
I went up to the ascetics and brahmins whose view is that everything that is experienced is because of the Lord God’s creation, and I said to them: ‘Is it really true that this is the venerables’ view?’ And they answered, ‘Yes’. I said to them: ‘In that case, you might kill living creatures, steal, be unchaste; use speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical; be covetous, malicious, or have wrong view, all because of the Lord God’s creation.’

Those who believe that the Lord God’s creative power is the most important thing have no enthusiasm, no effort, no idea that there are things that should and should not be done. Since they don’t acknowledge as a genuine fact that there are things that should and should not be done, they’re unmindful and careless, and can’t rightly be called ascetics. This is my second legitimate refutation of the ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view.
On how Brahma cannot answer a question, asked the monk to ask Buddha.
https://suttacentral.net/dn11/en/sujato ... ript=latin
Once it so happened, Kevaddha, that a mendicant in this very Saṅgha had the following thought, ‘Where do these four primary elements cease without anything left over, namely, the elements of earth, water, fire, and air?’

Then that mendicant attained a state of immersion such that a path to the gods appeared. Then he approached the Gods of the Four Great Kings and said, ‘Reverends, where do these four primary elements cease without anything left over, namely, the elements of earth, water, fire, and air?’

When he said this, those gods said to him, ‘Mendicant, we too do not know this. But the Four Great Kings are our superiors. They might know.’

Then he approached the Four Great Kings and asked the same question. But they also said to him, ‘Mendicant, we too do not know this. But the gods of the Thirty-Three … Sakka, lord of gods … the gods of Yāmā … the god named Suyāma … the Joyful gods … the god named Santussita … the gods who delight in creation … the god named Sunimmita … the gods who control the creation of others … the god named Vasavattī … the gods of Brahmā’s Host. They might know.’

Then that mendicant attained a state of immersion such that a path to Brahmā appeared. Then he approached those gods and said, ‘Reverends, where do these four primary elements cease without anything left over, namely, the elements of earth, water, fire, and air?’ But they also said to him, ‘Mendicant, we too do not know this. But there is Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Undefeated, the Champion, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord God, the Maker, the Author, the First, the Begetter, the Controller, the Father of those who have been born and those yet to be born. He is our superior. He might know.’

‘But reverends, where is that Brahmā now?’ ‘We also don’t know where he is or what way he lies. But by the signs that are seen—light arising and radiance appearing—we know that Brahmā will appear. For this is the precursor for the appearance of Brahmā, namely light arising and radiance appearing.’ Not long afterwards, the Great Brahmā appeared.

Then that mendicant approached the Great Brahmā and said to him, ‘Reverend, where do these four primary elements cease without anything left over, namely, the elements of earth, water, fire, and air?’ The Great Brahmā said to him, ‘I am Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Undefeated, the Champion, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord God, the Maker, the Author, the First, the Begetter, the Controller, the Father of those who have been born and those yet to be born.’

For a second time, that mendicant said to the Great Brahmā, ‘Reverend, I am not asking you whether you are Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Undefeated, the Champion, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord God, the Maker, the Author, the First, the Begetter, the Controller, the Father of those who have been born and those yet to be born. I am asking where these four primary elements cease without anything left over.’

For a second time, the Great Brahmā said to him, ‘I am Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Undefeated, the Champion, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord God, the Maker, the Author, the First, the Begetter, the Controller, the Father of those who have been born and those yet to be born.’ For a third time, that mendicant said to the Great Brahmā, ‘Reverend, I am not asking you whether you are Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Undefeated, the Champion, the Universal Seer, the Wielder of Power, the Lord God, the Maker, the Author, the First, the Begetter, the Controller, the Father of those who have been born and those yet to be born. I am asking where these four primary elements cease without anything left over.’

Then the Great Brahmā took that mendicant by the arm, led him off to one side, and said to him, ‘Mendicant, these gods think that there is nothing at all that I don’t know and see and understand and realize. That’s why I didn’t answer in front of them. But I too do not know where these four primary elements cease with nothing left over. Therefore, mendicant, the misdeed is yours alone, the mistake is yours alone, in that you passed over the Buddha and searched elsewhere for an answer to this question. Mendicant, go to the Buddha and ask him this question. You should remember it in line with his answer.’
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by cappuccino »

Tutareture wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:36 am I can't live out my full identity and I can hardly enjoy life as it is with all the rules.

I need clear cut logical arguments or metaphysical proof.
your identity is that which feels suffering


when you let go you will not suffer


God is not the one who lets go
User avatar
Tutareture
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2020 3:08 am

Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by Tutareture »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:55 am
Tutareture wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:36 am I can't live out my full identity and I can hardly enjoy life as it is with all the rules.

I need clear cut logical arguments or metaphysical proof.
your identity is that which feels suffering


when you let go you will not suffer


God is not the one who lets go
I understand that,but I would be much happier as a Transwoman than as I am now.even if that doesn't cure all my sufferings.
אַל-תְּהִי צַדִּיק הַרְבֵּה, וְאַל-תִּתְחַכַּם יוֹתֵר: לָמָּה, תִּשּׁוֹמֵם. Be not righteous overmuch; neither make thyself overwise; why shouldest thou destroy thyself? -Ecclesiastes 7:16
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by cappuccino »

Tutareture wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:13 am I understand that,but I would be much happier as a X than as I am now.
everyone is in your predicament


they want to become something different


that's the essence of Saṃsāra
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by cappuccino »

Tutareture wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:36 am I need good Buddhist arguments against the Abrahamic conception of God or God in general.
God is real
sunnat
Posts: 1431
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:08 am

Post by sunnat »

In http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh245_Ledi_No ... lained.pdf the chapter on Right View, part 5 : 'All beings abide supported by their kamma', sub section : 'Refuge in other religions', the Venerable Ledi Sayadaw writes about this.
Mr. Seek
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:45 am

Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Tutareture wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:36 amI need clear cut logical arguments or metaphysical proof.
Ah. I see. Well you won't find any here. And honestly your attitude seems very off--as if we are somehow indebted to you and have to prove to you something. No ma'am, we don't. You're on your own. You have full authority and full responsibility. I'll leave you a quote from MN 18 that, if you're insightful and if it's meant to be, you'll drop all this metaphysical bickering over what is true and false, real and unreal, right or wrong, existing or not existing.
"What is the contemplative’s doctrine? What does he proclaim?”--"The sort of doctrine, friend, where one does not keep quarreling with anyone in the cosmos with its devas, Māras, and Brahmās, with its contemplatives and brahmans, its royalty and commonfolk; the sort (of doctrine) where perceptions no longer obsess the brahman who remains dissociated from sensuality, free from perplexity, his uncertainty cut away, devoid of craving for becoming and non-. Such is my doctrine; such is what I proclaim.”
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by Sam Vara »

Tutareture wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:36 am title.I need good buddhist arguments against the abrahamic conception of God or God in general.I heard about Gunapala Dharmasiri's Buddhist Critique of the Christian Concept of God but I can't get my hands on it.Abrahamic theism is really suffocating my personal life,as I am LGBT and I can't live out my full identity and I can hardly enjoy life as it is with all the rules.

here are some bad arguments I usually here from nontheists:
the existance of suffering,when suffering can be tolerated for a future good and the omnipotence paradox,when omnipotence to a christian or muslim is all power there is not power wich is illogical.

I need clear cut logical arguments or metaphysical proof.
Three related points here. The first is that if you really find a conflict between your sexuality and Abrahamic theism, then your difficulties probably stem from some particular Abrahamic theists, rather than theism itself. I know quite a few gay men and women who have reconciled themselves to theism, and some of whom are actually Anglican priests. Do you have independent knowledge that God dislikes LGBT people?

Second, FWIW, my lack of belief in God is mainly based upon the argument from the existence of evil, which is Buddhism seems to be found in MN 101:
If beings experience pleasure & pain based on the creative act of a supreme god, then obviously the Niganthas have been created by an evil supreme god, which is why they now feel such fierce, sharp, racking pains
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

and MN 82:
'The world is without shelter, without protector': This is the second Dhamma summary...
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Third, I'm wondering whether this is a question predicated upon a genuine personal problem. You periodically turn up here with a different philosophical problem or conundrum, and then challenge all comers to prove you wrong. It seems you enjoy the debate rather than seek to engage with the Dhamma, as your signature says. In the past you've changed your religion and done this, so one might be forgiven a degree of scepticism here...
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by asahi »

Tutareture wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:36 am title.I need good buddhist arguments against the abrahamic conception of God or God in general.I heard about Gunapala Dharmasiri's Buddhist Critique of the Christian Concept of God but I can't get my hands on it.Abrahamic theism is really suffocating my personal life,as I am LGBT and I can't live out my full identity and I can hardly enjoy life as it is with all the rules.

here are some bad arguments I usually here from nontheists:
the existance of suffering,when suffering can be tolerated for a future good and the omnipotence paradox,when omnipotence to a christian or muslim is all power there is not power wich is illogical.

I need clear cut logical arguments or metaphysical proof.
Any specific God u love so much cant let go ?
No bashing No gossiping
User avatar
Kusala
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:02 am

Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by Kusala »

Tutareture wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:36 am title.I need good buddhist arguments against the abrahamic conception of God or God in general.I heard about Gunapala Dharmasiri's Buddhist Critique of the Christian Concept of God but I can't get my hands on it.Abrahamic theism is really suffocating my personal life,as I am LGBT and I can't live out my full identity and I can hardly enjoy life as it is with all the rules.

here are some bad arguments I usually here from nontheists:
the existance of suffering,when suffering can be tolerated for a future good and the omnipotence paradox,when omnipotence to a christian or muslim is all power there is not power wich is illogical.

I need clear cut logical arguments or metaphysical proof.


"Twenty-five years ago, one of my teachers, Ajaan Suwat, led a meditation retreat in Massachusetts for which I served as translator. During a group interview session one afternoon, a retreatant new to Buddhism quipped, “You guys would have a good religion here if only you had a God. That way people would have some sense of support in their practice when things aren’t going well.”

Ajaan Suwat’s gentle reply has stayed with me ever since: “If there were a god who could arrange that by my taking a mouthful of food all the beings in the world would become full, I’d bow down to that god. But I haven’t found anyone like that yet.”

There are two main reasons these words have continued to resonate with me. One is that they’re such an elegant argument against the existence of an all-powerful, all-merciful Creator. Look at the way life survives: by feeding on other life. The need to eat entails unavoidable suffering not only for those who are eaten but also for those who feed, because we are never free of the need to feed. Wouldn’t an all-powerful, all-merciful Creator have come up with a better design for life than this?"


https://tricycle.org/magazine/we-are-not-one/
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4646
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

The happiness of renunciation is far superior to the happiness of sensual pleasures.

If you can gain insight into the truth of not-self, you can renounce the suffering of attachment to all kinds of being. “I am a Sufi,” will no longer apply. “I am a man,” will no longer apply. “I am a woman,” will no longer apply. “I think, therefore I am,” will no longer apply. There are thoughts, but there is no thinker.

“All conditions are impermanent, all conditions are suffering (unsatisfactory), all phenomena are devoid of self. When one discerns this by means of wisdom, one becomes disgusted with the painful, this is the path to purification.”

Dhammapada verses 277-279.

Whatever is rightly perceived as impermanent, suffering and disgusting, as a source of pain, grief, and despair, is easy to renounce. A simile is given in one of the texts of a fisherman who grabs what he thinks is an eel, only to discover that it is a poisonous snake. What do you think? Will he keep it, or throw it away as far as possible before it bites and kills him?
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
User avatar
Kusala
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:02 am

Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by Kusala »

Tutareture wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:36 am title.I need good buddhist arguments against the abrahamic conception of God or God in general.I heard about Gunapala Dharmasiri's Buddhist Critique of the Christian Concept of God but I can't get my hands on it.Abrahamic theism is really suffocating my personal life,as I am LGBT and I can't live out my full identity and I can hardly enjoy life as it is with all the rules.

here are some bad arguments I usually here from nontheists:
the existance of suffering,when suffering can be tolerated for a future good and the omnipotence paradox,when omnipotence to a christian or muslim is all power there is not power wich is illogical.

I need clear cut logical arguments or metaphysical proof.
Beyond Belief: A Buddhist Critique Of Fundamentalist Christianity

https://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/beyond-belief02.pdf
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
Post Reply