I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Tutareture
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by Tutareture »

Also vajrayana appeals most to me so you can still get nirvana and be sexual though your sexual desire would diminish as you become more awakened .
אַל-תְּהִי צַדִּיק הַרְבֵּה, וְאַל-תִּתְחַכַּם יוֹתֵר: לָמָּה, תִּשּׁוֹמֵם. Be not righteous overmuch; neither make thyself overwise; why shouldest thou destroy thyself? -Ecclesiastes 7:16
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Tutareture
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by Tutareture »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:16 pm
4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:59 pmThe Buddhist Ouyi Zhixu (1599–1655), in his "Collected Refutations of Heterodoxy", refuted the claim that an uncreated creator god exists, specifically refuting Christianity.
This one is very good as a historical document.

https://www.academia.edu/6640157/P%C3%A ... 1599_1655_

With a Google account, the OP can download the translation, or just view it online without one.

The author of the translated collection doesn't have an extremely in-depth knowledge of Christianity. For instance, there is reason to believe from the arguments outlined in the translation that the author does not have a knowledge of the story of the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, or of "the fall" that is so important in the Catholic theology he is engaging with. If he did, the objections would have been magnified tenfold, IMO.

Initially, the 22 theses against the Christians is in response to a brochure and/or leaflet-type document as well as two theological treatises that were being circulated by missionaries in the 1600s, not in response to the Bible or an in-person debate, not initially at least. As such, not every point that Master Zhong (which is apparently a pen-name for Ven Ouyi Zhixu used in the document) raises is a valid critique, but ignoring misunderstandings and miscommunications arisen from poor explanations in the treatises, Master Zhong nevertheless raises several tangible points of interest. The document is very interesting historically regardless of any other merits it might have.
Thank you.before I read it would it be against the theistic personalist God that changes,is in time and complex or just the divine simplistic diety of the Catholics ?
אַל-תְּהִי צַדִּיק הַרְבֵּה, וְאַל-תִּתְחַכַּם יוֹתֵר: לָמָּה, תִּשּׁוֹמֵם. Be not righteous overmuch; neither make thyself overwise; why shouldest thou destroy thyself? -Ecclesiastes 7:16
pegembara
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by pegembara »

If you can’t let go, then let God. In other words your body, thoughts, perceptions and feelings are all God’s. They come from God and will return to God.

You claim nothing as yours. From ashes to ashes and dust to dust.

Everything that arises passes. They all belonged to God. You are not God.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

pegembara wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:40 am If you can’t let go, then let God. In other words your body, thoughts, perceptions and feelings are all God’s. They come from God and will return to God.

You claim nothing as yours. From ashes to ashes and dust to dust.

Everything that arises passes. They all belonged to God. You are not God.
That is not a Buddhist view, although it seems to approximate Hinduism.
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Tutareture wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:36 amThank you.before I read it would it be against the theistic personalist God that changes,is in time and complex or just the divine simplistic diety of the Catholics ?
Simple Catholics believe in a simple God. Catholics who aren't simple don't believe in a simple God. The author of the text in question is responding to a brochure and two treatises, and some of his critiques hit the nail on the head and some of them completely misunderstand the material he's interfacing with, likely because the treatises being distributed by missionaries were badly written and didn't even communicate Christian doctrines accurately.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

Tutareture wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:34 am Also vajrayana appeals most to me so you can still get nirvana and be sexual though your sexual desire would diminish as you become more awakened .
With all due respect, then, maybe you would be better seeking guidance from qualified Vajrayana Buddhist masters - or at least from a forum where Vajrayana Buddhists gather. Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhism has preserved many refutations of many models of theism, and some scholars or practitioners from within that movement may be able to guide you towards refuting the God phd Dr Ryan Mullins believes in while helping you to practise Vajrayana.

Alternatively, you may be interested in considering Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhist traditions/texts about the adi-Buddha and/or Samantabhadra. When I thought that I was to marry a Roman Catholic, I began researching such matters in hope that they would allow me to better understand the belief that an uncreated creator god exists and approach it from a Buddhist perspective.

As for being transgender, the following may help you. "The Vimalakirti Sutra has a passage where Sariputra is transformed into a woman and this is used as a teaching device to show him how gender is fluid and empty of essence." "Also in the Lotus sutra, a young enlightened girl transforms into a man in order to show some monks who don't believe her powers."
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Tutareture wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:34 am Also vajrayana appeals most to me so you can still get nirvana and be sexual though your sexual desire would diminish as you become more awakened .
You have full authority and full responsibility.
"For a person to indulge in sensual pleasures without sensual passion, without sensual perception, without sensual thinking: That isn’t possible." -- MN 22
"One in whom no sensualities dwell; in whom no craving is found; who has crossed over perplexity—his emancipation is not other than that." -- Snp 5.9
"In one given over to sexual intercourse, the teaching is muddled and he practices wrongly: This is ignoble in him." -- Snp 4.7
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by nmjojola »

This really boils down to the simple matter of ones attitude towards the question of responsibility; that is, how one will respond to the postulation that they are solely responsible for their situation, that no one else but them can be blamed for one bit of it whatsoever. For it is that basis which without there could be no Dhamma, no path to ones own liberation in the here and now, that only they can trek after finding it following the guidance of the Buddha and the Arahants recorded in the Suttas.

The intelligent, self-honest person, who is truly concerned for their own welfare; will recognize that its only in accepting that harsh and challenging premise (that you are ultimately responsible for your existence, for your suffering, for your situation in the world) that there could be the possibility of salvation, because it would mean you (might) have the power; and that that power could not come any other way, and thus without, nothing meaningful can be accomplished.

So, rather than looking for some sort of metaphysical proof or reasoning, try to see that there really is no other choice; lest one condemns themselves to the fate of perpetual suffering, seeking, wandering, and wondering.

"And what, then, about the Buddha’s Teaching—how does it tell us to deal with the question whether or not God exists? The first thing is to refuse to be bullied into giving a categorical answer, yes or no, to such a treacherous question. The second thing is to see that the answer to this question will depend on the answer to a more immediate question: “Do I myself ex­ist? Is my self in fact eternal, or is it something that perishes with the body?” And it is here that the difficulties begin. The Buddha says that the world is divided, for the most part, between the Yeas and the Nays, between the eternalists and the annihilationists, and that they are forever at each other’s throats. But these are two extremes, and the Buddha’s Teaching goes in between. So long as we have experience of our selves, the question “Does my self exist?” will thrust itself upon us: if we answer in the affirmative we shall tend to affirm the existence of God, and if we answer in the negative we shall deny the existence of God. But what if we have ceased to have experience of ourselves? (I do not mean reflexive experience as such, but experience of our selves as an ego or a person.) If this were to happen—and it is the specific aim of the Buddha’s Teaching (and of no other teaching) to arrange for it to happen—then [...] should we stop questioning about our existence and the existence of God" - Nanavira (Bolded part done by me for emphasis)
Last edited by nmjojola on Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SDC
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by SDC »

nmjojola wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:07 pm
:goodpost:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by befriend »

Say there is a creator omnipotent God he would like everything in existence be Annica Dukkha and Annata.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by confusedlayman »

Creator god? No
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Tutareture wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:36 am title.I need good buddhist arguments against the abrahamic conception of God or God in general.I heard about Gunapala Dharmasiri's Buddhist Critique of the Christian Concept of God but I can't get my hands on it.Abrahamic theism is really suffocating my personal life,as I am LGBT and I can't live out my full identity and I can hardly enjoy life as it is with all the rules.

here are some bad arguments I usually here from nontheists:
the existance of suffering,when suffering can be tolerated for a future good and the omnipotence paradox,when omnipotence to a christian or muslim is all power there is not power wich is illogical.

I need clear cut logical arguments or metaphysical proof.
Possibly what you need is to take a step back from all these beliefs. They are really just thoughts.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by cappuccino »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:39 pm
Tutareture wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:36 am I need clear cut logical arguments or metaphysical proof.
Possibly what you need is to take a step back from all these beliefs. They are really just thoughts.
could you walk away from Buddha?


would not make sense, would it
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by pilgrim »

There is also this book which you can download as a pdf
De Silva & Bomhard - Beyond Belief - A Buddhist Critique of Fundamentalist Christianity
https://www.academia.edu/43879884/De_Si ... nity_2016_
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Tutareture
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by Tutareture »

I think that Buddhists have done an excellent job of refuting the classical theistic God .I think that theistic personalism is reducing God to a contingent creature since any being that does not have it's being as it's existence is deriving it's being from another ,but a being who's essence is identical to it's existence cannot be passable or mutable because it has no becoming or potentiality .any being that goes from act to potentiality is derivative.Now I'm not saying that a being who's essence is identical to it's existence can exist but that is theism.a theism without this aspect cannot exist as the Catholics rightly assert ,but this would make God utterly simple and impassable and thus a dead rock that isn't even sentient nor can act to create the world.
אַל-תְּהִי צַדִּיק הַרְבֵּה, וְאַל-תִּתְחַכַּם יוֹתֵר: לָמָּה, תִּשּׁוֹמֵם. Be not righteous overmuch; neither make thyself overwise; why shouldest thou destroy thyself? -Ecclesiastes 7:16
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