I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
4GreatHeavenlyKings
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

Tutareture wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:55 am I think that Buddhists have done an excellent job of refuting the classical theistic God .I think that theistic personalism is reducing God to a contingent creature since any being that does not have it's being as it's existence is deriving it's being from another ,but a being who's essence is identical to it's existence cannot be passable or mutable because it has no becoming or potentiality .any being that goes from act to potentiality is derivative.Now I'm not saying that a being who's essence is identical to it's existence can exist but that is theism.a theism without this aspect cannot exist as the Catholics rightly assert ,but this would make God utterly simple and impassable and thus a dead rock that isn't even sentient nor can act to create the world.
1 rejoice, friend, to learn that you regard Buddhist apologetics against an uncreated creator god so highly. Would you mind telling me which text(s) you found so persuasive?

If I may add to your words, a being that changes (or creates change in reality, as an uncreated creator god is alleged to do) cannot be eternally perfect because to change is to be either become (more) perfect (indicating that one was not perfect) or to become less perfect (indicating that one will not be perfect).
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by Sam Vara »

4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:05 pm
If I may add to your words, a being that changes (or creates change in reality, as an uncreated creator god is alleged to do) cannot be eternally perfect because to change is to be either become (more) perfect (indicating that one was not perfect) or to become less perfect (indicating that one will not be perfect).
I don't think this is cogent. Why can a being not change without detriment to its perfection?
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:41 pm
4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:05 pm
If I may add to your words, a being that changes (or creates change in reality, as an uncreated creator god is alleged to do) cannot be eternally perfect because to change is to be either become (more) perfect (indicating that one was not perfect) or to become less perfect (indicating that one will not be perfect).
I don't think this is cogent. Why can a being not change without detriment to its perfection?
Because if it were truly perfect, then it would not need to change at all. You may say that a perfect being may manifest its perfection by changing in order to remain perfect in an imperfect environment where the perfect being must change in order to remain perfect, but a truly perfect being would be s o perfect that no environment would destroy its imperfection.

Furthermore, I was not talking about a generic perfect being but about a perfect uncreated creator god, which, in order to be perfect, could only create perfect environments that would not mar perfection - because to create imperfect things is to be imperfect.
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by Sam Vara »

4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:05 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:41 pm
4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:05 pm
If I may add to your words, a being that changes (or creates change in reality, as an uncreated creator god is alleged to do) cannot be eternally perfect because to change is to be either become (more) perfect (indicating that one was not perfect) or to become less perfect (indicating that one will not be perfect).
I don't think this is cogent. Why can a being not change without detriment to its perfection?
Because if it were truly perfect, then it would not need to change at all. You may say that a perfect being may manifest its perfection by changing in order to remain perfect in an imperfect environment where the perfect being must change in order to remain perfect, but a truly perfect being would be s o perfect that no environment would destroy its imperfection.

Furthermore, I was not talking about a generic perfect being but about a perfect uncreated creator god, which, in order to be perfect, could only create perfect environments that would not mar perfection - because to create imperfect things is to be imperfect.
Still not compelling, I'm afraid. Maybe it just changes without needing to change, and not in response to its environment. Perhaps part of its perfection is that it transcends necessity. Change is one thing, perfection another.
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:14 pm
4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:05 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:41 pm

I don't think this is cogent. Why can a being not change without detriment to its perfection?
Because if it were truly perfect, then it would not need to change at all. You may say that a perfect being may manifest its perfection by changing in order to remain perfect in an imperfect environment where the perfect being must change in order to remain perfect, but a truly perfect being would be s o perfect that no environment would destroy its imperfection.

Furthermore, I was not talking about a generic perfect being but about a perfect uncreated creator god, which, in order to be perfect, could only create perfect environments that would not mar perfection - because to create imperfect things is to be imperfect.
Still not compelling, I'm afraid. Maybe it just changes without needing to change, and not in response to its environment. Perhaps part of its perfection is that it transcends necessity. Change is one thing, perfection another.
Even changing without needing to change is motivated by desire, though - and desire is proof of imperfection. The truly perfect desire nothing.
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by Sam Vara »

4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:25 pm
Even changing without needing to change is motivated by desire, though - and desire is proof of imperfection. The truly perfect desire nothing.
That's not so, I'm afraid. Motivations might be perfect, and the desire might be for one perfect state after another. We don’t really know what the truly perfect do.
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:35 pm
4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:25 pm
Even changing without needing to change is motivated by desire, though - and desire is proof of imperfection. The truly perfect desire nothing.
That's not so, I'm afraid. Motivations might be perfect, and the desire might be for one perfect state after another. We don’t really know what the truly perfect do.
Perfect motivation cannot be used to justify desire - which is itself proof of imperfection for an uncreated creator god (who, in order to be perfect, must create a perfect world that can provoke no desire). You may say that a perfect uncreated creator god may create a desire-creating world due to playfulness - but such playfulness, by being addressed by action, is still evidence of imperfection, because a perfect being does not need to entertain emself through action.

That having been said, I concede that a perfect created being could desire within an imperfect world - so thanks for that correction.

In any case, I thank you for this genuinely interesting and throught-provoking discussion, which is off-topic from the OP.
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by Tutareture »

4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:05 pm
Tutareture wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:55 am I think that Buddhists have done an excellent job of refuting the classical theistic God .I think that theistic personalism is reducing God to a contingent creature since any being that does not have it's being as it's existence is deriving it's being from another ,but a being who's essence is identical to it's existence cannot be passable or mutable because it has no becoming or potentiality .any being that goes from act to potentiality is derivative.Now I'm not saying that a being who's essence is identical to it's existence can exist but that is theism.a theism without this aspect cannot exist as the Catholics rightly assert ,but this would make God utterly simple and impassable and thus a dead rock that isn't even sentient nor can act to create the world.
1 rejoice, friend, to learn that you regard Buddhist apologetics against an uncreated creator god so highly. Would you mind telling me which text(s) you found so persuasive?

If I may add to your words, a being that changes (or creates change in reality, as an uncreated creator god is alleged to do) cannot be eternally perfect because to change is to be either become (more) perfect (indicating that one was not perfect) or to become less perfect (indicating that one will not be perfect).
Shantideva in his Bodhisatvacarya,but I also looked at the two types of theism that contradict each other but are both untenable-personalist theism and classical theism.since,both are wrong,theism cannot be True.Classical theism doesn't make God a creature like personalism,but the result is a utterly dumb and insentient(since it is ABSOLUTELY simple) dead frozen rock as a God.
אַל-תְּהִי צַדִּיק הַרְבֵּה, וְאַל-תִּתְחַכַּם יוֹתֵר: לָמָּה, תִּשּׁוֹמֵם. Be not righteous overmuch; neither make thyself overwise; why shouldest thou destroy thyself? -Ecclesiastes 7:16
4GreatHeavenlyKings
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

Tutareture wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:44 am
4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:05 pm
Tutareture wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:55 am I think that Buddhists have done an excellent job of refuting the classical theistic God .I think that theistic personalism is reducing God to a contingent creature since any being that does not have it's being as it's existence is deriving it's being from another ,but a being who's essence is identical to it's existence cannot be passable or mutable because it has no becoming or potentiality .any being that goes from act to potentiality is derivative.Now I'm not saying that a being who's essence is identical to it's existence can exist but that is theism.a theism without this aspect cannot exist as the Catholics rightly assert ,but this would make God utterly simple and impassable and thus a dead rock that isn't even sentient nor can act to create the world.
1 rejoice, friend, to learn that you regard Buddhist apologetics against an uncreated creator god so highly. Would you mind telling me which text(s) you found so persuasive?

If I may add to your words, a being that changes (or creates change in reality, as an uncreated creator god is alleged to do) cannot be eternally perfect because to change is to be either become (more) perfect (indicating that one was not perfect) or to become less perfect (indicating that one will not be perfect).
Shantideva in his Bodhisatvacarya,but I also looked at the two types of theism that contradict each other but are both untenable-personalist theism and classical theism.since,both are wrong,theism cannot be True.Classical theism doesn't make God a creature like personalism,but the result is a utterly dumb and insentient(since it is ABSOLUTELY simple) dead frozen rock as a God.
All the more reason, I suppose, for me to read in detail the wisdom from that master from Nalanda. :namaste:
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by cappuccino »

Tutareture wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:44 am frozen rock as a God.
syncretism is the practice of two religions at once

:shrug:
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by Sam Vara »

4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:33 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:35 pm
4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:25 pm
Even changing without needing to change is motivated by desire, though - and desire is proof of imperfection. The truly perfect desire nothing.
That's not so, I'm afraid. Motivations might be perfect, and the desire might be for one perfect state after another. We don’t really know what the truly perfect do.
Perfect motivation cannot be used to justify desire - which is itself proof of imperfection for an uncreated creator god (who, in order to be perfect, must create a perfect world that can provoke no desire).
There could be desire which is perfect because it is unprovoked and therefore needs no such justification. If there is a claim that such a thing is impossible, then it would need to be justified and not merely stated as an axiom. As I said before, change is one thing, imperfection another.
In any case, I thank you for this genuinely interesting and throught-provoking discussion, which is off-topic from the OP.
No, it's not off-topic. You provided a critique of theism, and I'm pointing out that as a critique it does not hold water.
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

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Why do you hold on to God? Do you have any evidence of Him?

Do you think God persecutes you? Or is it not possible for you to accept a non-theist religion, because that would be in your opinion wrong?

Or do you have a little voice in your head telling you, “buy this. Buy that. Go here. Go there. Time to get up. Time to go to sleep.”

I fall into the last category. I find it insulting and a demonstration of severe ignorance when people tell me the voices in my head are a “product of my illness - a psychological phenomenon of my own creation. Something that I can think my way out of. Something that I choose to believe.”

Okay? Why is the voice so much more intelligent than I am? How does it have access to historical data which I am informed of without prior knowledge? How does it mimic the sounds of other beings, such that I am deceived, embarrassed, shocked, or stunned by my own responses to meeting these various other beings on a psychic level?

I understand that I am not able to have a psychic conversation with Britney Spears. I understand that when I chat with Britney Spears, it is in fact the evil being who accompanies me everywhere who is pulling a deception. I understand that God created the Devil and his hoarde to occupy the fervent and busy mind of humans. But I have also seen what God can do and I have also heard the voice of God.

Does God change? All the time. He is constantly changing the fabric of existence in an infinite number of ways, on an infinite number of levels without a single moment of hesitation. This is also a change that He can foresee the consequences of three or four or more days down the road despite all of these changes being spontaneous. That is the reason He is called a Divine Creator.

His Creation is like a boiling pot of ramen noodles, yet it is all a part of His larger plan.

Despite hearing, seeing, and knowing God I believe in the teachings of the Buddha. I am not pursuaded that my infinite future depends on whether or not I accept Christ as my personal saviour. I believe Christ is a living being who can forgiv sins and cleanse the heart with his holiness. But I do not believe mere belief is sufficient to go to the same heaven that Jesus promised his followers.

“Not all of those who call out my name on that day will be saved.”

- the Bible.

Therefore, save your self.
“Physician, heal thy self.”

“Make every effort to enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the road leading to Hell and there are many who will go down that path”

- Jesus

Therefore? What is the narrow gate? It was defined 500 years earlier as the eightfold path - perfect wisdom - perfect meditation - and perfect virtue.

“The grateful will go to heaven.”

- the Buddha

Despite hearing, seeing, and knowing God personally, my ability to adhere to the teachings of the Buddha are not compromised. Though I have never taken the precepts officially, and I cannot even call my self a Buddhist layman, I believe his teachings are supreme, complete, without patchwork.

My only poisons at this stage is my willing consumption of alcohol as a form of escapism and a depressed kind of tendency to oversleep.

God does not need to interfere with your practice. Whichever gender you identify with … that does not matter to God or the Buddha. Do not let a belief in God affect your virtue, your concentration, and your wisdom.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
4GreatHeavenlyKings
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by 4GreatHeavenlyKings »

Pondera wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:56 am I understand that I am not able to have a psychic conversation with Britney Spears. I understand that when I chat with Britney Spears, it is in fact the evil being who accompanies me everywhere who is pulling a deception. I understand that God created the Devil and his hoarde to occupy the fervent and busy mind of humans. But I have also seen what God can do and I have also heard the voice of God.

[...]

Despite hearing, seeing, and knowing God I believe in the teachings of the Buddha.
1. Friend, seek professional help. What you describe sounds like some type of mental illness.

2. Have you read the Brahmajala Sutta and the Brahma-nimantanika Sutta? Do you accept them as the Buddha's teachings?
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by cappuccino »

Pondera wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:56 am I understand that I am not able to have a psychic conversation with Britney Spears.
you have a vivid imagination


perhaps stop indulging in imagination
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Re: I really want to be Buddhist,but I can't let go of God.what are buddhist critiques of theism?

Post by Pondera »

4GreatHeavenlyKings wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:41 pm
Pondera wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:56 am I understand that I am not able to have a psychic conversation with Britney Spears. I understand that when I chat with Britney Spears, it is in fact the evil being who accompanies me everywhere who is pulling a deception. I understand that God created the Devil and his hoarde to occupy the fervent and busy mind of humans. But I have also seen what God can do and I have also heard the voice of God.

[...]

Despite hearing, seeing, and knowing God I believe in the teachings of the Buddha.
1. Friend, seek professional help. What you describe sounds like some type of mental illness.

2. Have you read the Brahmajala Sutta and the Brahma-nimantanika Sutta? Do you accept them as the Buddha's teachings?
So funny and typical. You believe that the voice in your head is your own? That Mara spared you above all others?
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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