Efilism

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Dan74
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Re: Efilism

Post by Dan74 »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:21 pm
Dan74 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:11 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:57 pm Any "movement" or "philosophy" which is named after the word 'life' spelt backwards cannot really be worthy of consideration. It looks more like an exercise in attention-seeking from a young person who thinks they are brighter than they are. Shame on those who perpetrate this as if it is a serious philosophy, rather than tihsllub.
There are a lot of young people nowadays know know nothing but suffering. Depression is rampant, so it makes sense that they would try to enshrine their experience of life in a "philosophy". We, who disagree, can still honour their experience and reach out, in case they are interested.
Go on, then, you reach out. Let me know how you plan to do it.
Well... as a teacher I just try to stay open and let my students know they can talk to me and that I won't judge them.

While your diagnosis may have some truth to it, most of us think we are brighter than we are. How does it go, no matter the subject, about 75% of people believe they are above average!
_/|\_
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Sam Vara
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Re: Efilism

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Dan74 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:28 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:21 pm
Dan74 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:11 pm

There are a lot of young people nowadays know know nothing but suffering. Depression is rampant, so it makes sense that they would try to enshrine their experience of life in a "philosophy". We, who disagree, can still honour their experience and reach out, in case they are interested.
Go on, then, you reach out. Let me know how you plan to do it.
Well... as a teacher I just try to stay open and let my students know they can talk to me and that I won't judge them.
That's laudable, but sometimes it might help to let people know that their ideas will be judged. And if those ideas are that humans should facilitate the extinction of all sentient life, then perhaps we might judge them and find them wanting.
While your diagnosis may have some truth to it, most of us think we are brighter than we are. How does it go, no matter the subject, about 75% of people believe they are above average!
Sure! I certainly think that I'm brighter than a person who has a downer on sentience itself.
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Dan74
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Re: Efilism

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Sam Vara wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:37 pm
Dan74 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:28 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:21 pm

Go on, then, you reach out. Let me know how you plan to do it.
Well... as a teacher I just try to stay open and let my students know they can talk to me and that I won't judge them.
That's laudable, but sometimes it might help to let people know that their ideas will be judged. And if those ideas are that humans should facilitate the extinction of all sentient life, then perhaps we might judge them and find them wanting.
It's a terrible idea, for sure. But it seems to me that when people profess such ideas, the last thing this is about is the idea itself, but rather what it represents. A cry for her, an angry scream at society, etc etc. IMO, it's more about the emotional content thereof, rather than earnestly believing that this philosophy is intellectually (or even ethically) defensible.
_/|\_
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Aloka
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Re: Efilism

Post by Aloka »

Sam Vara wrote: . Shame on those who perpetrate this as if it is a serious philosophy, rather than tihsllub.
Indeed, wherever one looks, life seems to be getting full of a whole lotta tihsllub these days!

:coffee:
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Sam Vara
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Re: Efilism

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Dan74 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:55 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:37 pm
Dan74 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:28 pm

Well... as a teacher I just try to stay open and let my students know they can talk to me and that I won't judge them.
That's laudable, but sometimes it might help to let people know that their ideas will be judged. And if those ideas are that humans should facilitate the extinction of all sentient life, then perhaps we might judge them and find them wanting.
It's a terrible idea, for sure. But it seems to me that when people profess such ideas, the last thing this is about is the idea itself, but rather what it represents. A cry for her, an angry scream at society, etc etc. IMO, it's more about the emotional content thereof, rather than earnestly believing that this philosophy is intellectually (or even ethically) defensible.
Yes, spot on.
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Pondera
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Re: Efilism

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Dan74 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:49 pm
Pondera wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:46 am Science is close to uploading our consciousness to a hard drive. This is a form of reincarnation. This is a form (the closest we have) to immortality.
Science doesn't even know what consciousness is. Brains don't work like computers, not remotely. So I am not sure what you're referring to, but I think we are not even close.
Well, my fellow mathematician (who I appreciate greatly in your assessment) - there’s a Joe Rogan Experience podcast with “1211 - Dr. Ben Goertzal” who’s in the frontiers of AGI.

According to him we’re 5 to 30 years away from AGI.

The transfer of consciousness from soft drive to hard drive may be nothing as we imagined. But intelligence can exist on silicone substrates.

So we may not know the nature of the consciousness transfer. But within 30 years it will be possible - even if it is exotically and wildly weird from what “biological” consciousness is.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
waryoffolly
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Re: Efilism

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Pondera wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:58 am
Well, my fellow mathematician (who I appreciate greatly in your assessment) - there’s a Joe Rogan Experience podcast with “1211 - Dr. Ben Goertzal” who’s in the frontiers of AGI.

According to him we’re 5 to 30 years away from AGI.

The transfer of consciousness from soft drive to hard drive may be nothing as we imagined. But intelligence can exist on silicone substrates.

So we may not know the nature of the consciousness transfer. But within 30 years it will be possible - even if it is exotically and wildly weird from what “biological” consciousness is.
A more detailed survey about AGI opinions among experts found here: https://www.nickbostrom.com/papers/survey.pdf

I'm in machine learning--personally I think it could be anywhere from 20-50 years away, assuming we don't kill ourselves with the other various existential threats to humanity in the meantime. 5 Years seems extremely unlikely to me. The progress in transformer-based language models the last few years is really impressive though.
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Dan74
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Re: Efilism

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Pondera wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:58 am
Dan74 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:49 pm
Pondera wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:46 am Science is close to uploading our consciousness to a hard drive. This is a form of reincarnation. This is a form (the closest we have) to immortality.
Science doesn't even know what consciousness is. Brains don't work like computers, not remotely. So I am not sure what you're referring to, but I think we are not even close.
Well, my fellow mathematician (who I appreciate greatly in your assessment) - there’s a Joe Rogan Experience podcast with “1211 - Dr. Ben Goertzal” who’s in the frontiers of AGI.

According to him we’re 5 to 30 years away from AGI.

The transfer of consciousness from soft drive to hard drive may be nothing as we imagined. But intelligence can exist on silicone substrates.

So we may not know the nature of the consciousness transfer. But within 30 years it will be possible - even if it is exotically and wildly weird from what “biological” consciousness is.
Goetzel and his former employer, Hanson, are widely known to hype up and totally exaggerate their achievements for the sake of PR (like Sophia). So this 5-30 year pretty much says to me that they have no idea. That's also what I heard recently from Ruth Ayelet (Living with Robots).
_/|\_
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Pondera
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Re: Efilism

Post by Pondera »

Dan74 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:18 am
Pondera wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:58 am
Dan74 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:49 pm

Science doesn't even know what consciousness is. Brains don't work like computers, not remotely. So I am not sure what you're referring to, but I think we are not even close.
Well, my fellow mathematician (who I appreciate greatly in your assessment) - there’s a Joe Rogan Experience podcast with “1211 - Dr. Ben Goertzal” who’s in the frontiers of AGI.

According to him we’re 5 to 30 years away from AGI.

The transfer of consciousness from soft drive to hard drive may be nothing as we imagined. But intelligence can exist on silicone substrates.

So we may not know the nature of the consciousness transfer. But within 30 years it will be possible - even if it is exotically and wildly weird from what “biological” consciousness is.
Goetzel and his former employer, Hanson, are widely known to hype up and totally exaggerate their achievements for the sake of PR (like Sophia). So this 5-30 year pretty much says to me that they have no idea. That's also what I heard recently from Ruth Ayelet (Living with Robots).
He’s a strange bloke. Believes the Singularity is enevitable. As if we couldn’t abandon AI right now. Which we could. But if human nature has anything to say about harbouring in its own destruction our species won’t stop until AGI is a reality. Also believes that “very good and very bad” things will happen when AGI is a reality. Believes that it’s important to train the AGI to be “good” - I suppose to prevent them from dominating, enslaving, or eradicating the human being - which is essentially what human beings have been doing to other species for the last 40,000 years. But sure - he’s a bit of a strange bloke who may be assessing his own value a little too high.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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