She died, went to heaven

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: She died, went to heaven

Post by cappuccino »

Ontheway wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:13 pm Okay, are you saying Buddha failed to understand the nature of God?
I think it may be so
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: She died, went to heaven

Post by Ontheway »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:18 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:13 pm Okay, are you saying Buddha failed to understand the nature of God?
I think it may be so
Alright, thanks for the answer.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: She died, went to heaven

Post by cappuccino »

Ontheway wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:30 pm Alright, thanks for the answer.
watch the video
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17191
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: She died, went to heaven

Post by DNS »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:32 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:30 pm Alright, thanks for the answer.
watch the video
I watched the video. I see a pretty young woman telling a story. That doesn't make it true. There is no evidence presented, just a story.

NDE is just that; a "near" death experience, not death. If it were death, there would be no one to come back and talk about it.

People see what they want or bring out what is already in their subconscious. Or they simply make it up to make their religion appear true. Some make millions selling their stories in books and lectures. So there are lots of reasons people tell those stories and in all cases there is no hard evidence.

She said she looked down at earth and it looked like an ant in comparison to the universe. Well duh, the earth is small in our Milky Way and the universe; anyone can see that from pictures from space. She said she went down a hallway and saw a white light. Yes, that's the typical story in many NDEs. Anyone can review other stories and use material from those.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: She died, went to heaven

Post by Sam Vara »

First, a moderation point. People have readily joined in here and provided a Buddhist critique of the woman's claims. That's good, but it would be even better if - in general, not just here - the OP could contain an explanation of how the topic relates to Theravadan Buddhism. That saves time, and gives people a cue as to what they should be commenting on.

(Moderation bit over...)

I thought this was excellent and quite moving. For me, the thread raises an interesting issue of how doctrine relates to intense experiences of the kind described. For example, if we believe that our view of things is somehow more correct or useful, is our view based upon an equally overwhelming and intense personal experience? Or is our view just based on what we have heard; something that is less troublesome to accept, something which just accords better with the far more pallid and "ordinary" experiences that we have had so far?

We might, of course, dismiss such accounts of extraordinary experiences because they don't obviously align with our views and dogma. She is lying, she misconstrued what happened, she is psychotic, etc. But then we might want to ask where our views and dogma came from. Mostly, they seem to come from pondering and then accepting views expressed by other people, and which are ultimately traced to the experience of the Buddha. And that, of course, could be subjected to the same criticisms that we might apply to this woman's alleged experience.

Not having had either experience, it might be useful for us to reflect on the motivations behind our feelings for such things. "God", you say? I wonder what Christian forums - and there are some extremely generous, open-hearted Christian forums - would make of some of the accounts of meditative experiences from "our side"?
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: She died, went to heaven

Post by cappuccino »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:45 pm I wonder what Christian forums - and there are some extremely generous, open-hearted Christian forums - would make of some of the accounts of meditative experiences from "our side"?
I'm on a Christian forum and mostly atheists reply
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: She died, went to heaven

Post by cappuccino »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:45 pm I thought this was excellent and quite moving.
which is a rare response and yet appropriate
Last edited by cappuccino on Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: She died, went to heaven

Post by cappuccino »

DNS wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:43 pm There is no evidence presented, just a story.
testimony is a form of evidence

:coffee:
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17191
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: She died, went to heaven

Post by DNS »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:59 pm
DNS wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:43 pm There is no evidence presented, just a story.
testimony is a form of evidence

:coffee:
Yes, but it's the lowest level of evidence. See this great talk by Dr. deGrasse Tyson.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: She died, went to heaven

Post by cappuccino »

DNS wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:31 pm Yes, but it's the lowest level of evidence. See this great talk by Dr. deGrasse Tyson.
Buddhism is the testimony of Gautama
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17191
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: She died, went to heaven

Post by DNS »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:32 pm
DNS wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:31 pm Yes, but it's the lowest level of evidence. See this great talk by Dr. deGrasse Tyson.
Buddhism is the testimony of Gautama
Yes and it's a teaching we can put to the test. See the deGrasse video. Testimony by itself is not something that can be scientifically tested. You either take their word for it or you don't; it's not testable.

We can practice meditation and see if there are benefits.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: She died, went to heaven

Post by cappuccino »

A second time... A third time, the group of five monks said to me, 'By that practice, that conduct, that performance of austerities you did not attain any superior human states, any distinction in knowledge & vision worthy of a noble one. So how can you now — living luxuriously, straying from your exertion, backsliding into abundance — have attained any superior human states, any distinction in knowledge & vision worthy of a noble one?'

"When this was said, I replied to the group of five monks, 'Do you recall my ever having spoken in this way before?'

"'No, lord.'

"'The Tathagata, monks, is not living luxuriously, has not strayed from his exertion, has not backslid into abundance. The Tathagata, friends, is a worthy one, rightly self-awakened. Lend ear, friends: the Deathless has been attained. I will instruct you. I will teach you the Dhamma. Practicing as instructed, you will in no long time reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for yourselves in the here & now.'

"And so I was able to convince them.

Ariyapariyesana Sutta: The Noble Search
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17191
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: She died, went to heaven

Post by DNS »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:39 pm "And so I was able to convince them."
Ariyapariyesana Sutta: The Noble Search
And then the 5 monks practiced and each attained enlightenment. It was not the teaching alone; but the practice they put forward and the efforts they made.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: She died, went to heaven

Post by cappuccino »

DNS wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:44 pm It was not the teaching alone; but the practice they put forward and the efforts they made.
mostly it is the teaching


which did not convince everyone


some doubted …
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17191
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: She died, went to heaven

Post by DNS »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:46 pm
DNS wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:44 pm It was not the teaching alone; but the practice they put forward and the efforts they made.
mostly it is the teaching
which did not convince everyone
some doubted …
Not sure what you are asking . . . those who doubted the Buddha's teachings probably did not become Buddhist and did not practice? That was their choice; life goes on. A Buddhist would say that is fine; we're not here to convince everyone and force the teachings on anyone.
Post Reply