Jesus the Messiah and Buddha

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Jesus the Messiah and Buddha

Post by Coëmgenu »

IMO, no. Rather than by "not having wrong views," it's easily reconcilable so long as you are willing to ignore logic and consequence and eel-wriggle endlessly, entertaining a doctrine of endless equivocation, about God.

‘I do not take it thus, nor do I take it in that way, nor do I take it in some other way. I do not say that it is not, nor do I say that it is neither this nor that.’

Deny, deny, deny. It's a good bad strategy used by many Christian apologists who only have the best of intentions on the surface.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Jesus the Messiah and Buddha

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:05 pm Deny, deny, deny.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Jesus the Messiah and Buddha

Post by Coëmgenu »

That was an alright movie. I watched it over Christmas with the family.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Jesus the Messiah and Buddha

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:09 pm That was an alright movie. I watched it over Christmas with the family.
metaphor
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mikenz66
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Re: Jesus the Messiah and Buddha

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi SV
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:48 am Yes, from the Bible, she says. Just as in Buddhism, there are many different ways to read and interpret texts. Bias is inescapable, but there are many Bible-thumpers who want to proclaim that they alone have the literal truth. Of course she would be deemed a heretic in the dark ages. She wouldn't even be allowed to be a priest - that's what made them dark!
Thanks for the perspectives. It's easy to view either "Chritianity" or "Buddhism" as a single doctrine with "one true interpretation".
Ontheway wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:54 am Certainly I agree that things can be interpreted in many ways as people want it to be. But I personally don't think that those interpretations are all true. There must be one of them is correct as the intended meaning stated by the Teacher.
Well, ultimately, there may well be one true interpretation, but I see no need to take posts on forums such as this that claim to reveal that one true interpretation seriously. :tongue:

:heart:
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Shlaymun
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Re: Jesus the Messiah and Buddha

Post by Shlaymun »

Interesting discussion!
Ontheway wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:38 am Kusala's comment is too straight forward :rofl:

Yup, according Christian faith, all nonbelievers will go straight to Hell and burn along with Satan till the Judgement Day, when the second-coming of Christ the Saviour defeats Evil and again He gives final judgement and permanent death for all nonbelievers.
I would say that this assertion is also too straightforward. Many of the early Christian thinkers (Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, etc.) taught universal salvation, and this is also the position held by some parts of the Church of the East (i.e. largely Middle Eastern). There seems to have been a move away from this position as Christianity moved westwards (Roman Catholicism, and later protestant movements), but that does not mean it's the only position. If "appeal to antiquity" holds any relevance, then arguably the eastern churches could be considered to be continuing an earlier tradition (being in a region and cultural milieu where Christianity first spread, closer to the Jewish views, etc.), which is also what some contemporary Eastern Orthodox theologians argue. Of course, theologians have found textual evidence pointing to the opposite, and the specifics vary (e.g., purgatory and so on), so this is by no means a clear-cut issue within the huge umbrella of Christianity.
Ontheway wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:39 pm
That would be impossible. If that happened, there is no difference between Christianity and secular morality...Christianity loses its own position as a doctrine for human salvation and becomes dysfunctional.
I don't think this follows – Christian morality is (supposedly) decreed by God. Christians adhere (or at least try) to Christian morality as a means to become closer to God. Within the framework of universal salvation, one would still follow the Christian teachings out of love of God and (presumably) reap the spiritual benefits. Secular morality has no such foundation.
Ontheway wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:54 am
Certainly I agree that things can be interpreted in many ways as people want it to be. But I personally don't think that those interpretations are all true. There must be one of them is correct as the intended meaning stated by the Teacher.
This is also not exactly clear cut and has its own issues. Arguably, the essential "meaning" of Christianity is the coming of Jesus himself – God descending to earth to allow salvation for all (whether that means its universal or not depends on one's stance, I suppose). A large part of Jesus' whole message was, according to most mainstream branches of Christianity, a move away from strict obedience to scripture (i.e. Jewish law). This is also how the New Testament differs significantly. Various branches (especially branches of Protestantism) have since moved back towards a more scriptural-heavy understanding/practice with attempts to codify "the true meaning of such and such a verse", but this is not true for all branches (particularly the Eastern churches that often place emphasis on mystical contemplation over scriptural literalism/scholasticism – parallels have been drawn to Buddhism).
Ontheway wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:39 am
Not from the Bible though.
Wouldn't that be bias? :rofl: I think in dark age, she will be deemed as heretic.
There is certainly scriptural basis for universal salvation, as I've mentioned the early theologians and Eastern churches who were not deemed heretics, and continue to be referred to. I think there is a bit of conflation here - Christianity is extremely broad, and the literalist/rationalist movements that tend to be more prevalent in the West are not necessarily representative of broader Christianity.
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:40 pm It's very possible. Many Christians do and have done so. It is coherent? No. It is systematic theology? No. But it's more humane, so likely better for them in the long-run even if it makes less sense.
The argument in favour of universal salvation is in fact that universal salvation is more "coherent", in the sense that (simplistically put) "eternal damnation" would be very contrary to the idea of the infinite love of a benevolent God, and also contrary to the earlier Jewish understanding(s) of redemption and the afterlife (of course, there are arguments to the opposite, as is always the case...).
Last edited by Shlaymun on Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Jesus the Messiah and Buddha

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Shlaymun wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:59 pm ...
:goodpost: :thumbsup:

Welcome to Dhamma Wheel, Shlaymun! :anjali:
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Re: Jesus the Messiah and Buddha

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Sam Vara wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:36 am My point is that when we say "according to Christian faith", that's likely to be a significant oversimplification, as Christians do not all believe the same things.
Yes, there are many varieties of Christianity, and many varieties of Buddhism.
And attempting to compare Ahrahamic traditions with Dharmic traditions is inherently difficult.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: Jesus the Messiah and Buddha

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Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:23 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:36 am My point is that when we say "according to Christian faith", that's likely to be a significant oversimplification, as Christians do not all believe the same things.
Yes, there are many varieties of Christianity, and many varieties of Buddhism.
And attempting to compare Ahrahamic traditions with Dharmic traditions is inherently difficult.
True. See newcomer Shlaymun's detailed post above.

Somewhere, on a Christian forum, someone is confidently pointing out that the Buddha recognised that people have selves because he said (in a really popular and early text, and I can even show you the Pali!) that we should be a light unto our selves. :thinking:
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Re: Jesus the Messiah and Buddha

Post by Shlaymun »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:06 pm
Shlaymun wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:59 pm ...
:goodpost: :thumbsup:

Welcome to Dhamma Wheel, Shlaymun! :anjali:
Thank you! I realise my first post here mostly concerns Christianity, but I am interested in Buddhism as a whole (although I don't consider myself Buddhist), and more generally, comparative religion.
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Re: Jesus the Messiah and Buddha

Post by Ontheway »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:37 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:23 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:36 am My point is that when we say "according to Christian faith", that's likely to be a significant oversimplification, as Christians do not all believe the same things.
Yes, there are many varieties of Christianity, and many varieties of Buddhism.
And attempting to compare Ahrahamic traditions with Dharmic traditions is inherently difficult.
True. See newcomer Shlaymun's detailed post above.

Somewhere, on a Christian forum, someone is confidently pointing out that the Buddha recognised that people have selves because he said (in a really popular and early text, and I can even show you the Pali!) that we should be a light unto our selves. :thinking:
That is the teaching of early Buddhism Puggalavada.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Red Belly
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Re: Jesus the Messiah and Buddha

Post by Red Belly »

That's a superb (first!) post, Shlaymun. Well said.

As for the idea of universal salvation in Christianity, it was by no means an outlier belief in the east, as has been pointed out. In addition to the mentioned Origen and Gregory of Nyssa, one can add the names of Maximos the Confessor and Isaac of Nineveh to the list (and there are probably others I'm forgetting); in more recent times, Silouan of Athos, Bishop Kallistos Ware and, perhaps most eloquently, David Bentley Hart, have all espoused this belief as well. Hart especially has some excellent videos on Youtube, and his work That All Shall Be Saved is well worth a read if one is interested in the reasoning behind such a view.

An Orthodox priest named Aiden Kimel also has some good Youtube videos on Universalism. From a Christian viewpoint assuming a benevolent, all-powerful God, I think their arguments are very, very hard to refute.
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Re: Jesus the Messiah and Buddha

Post by Sam Vara »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:27 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:37 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:23 pm

Yes, there are many varieties of Christianity, and many varieties of Buddhism.
And attempting to compare Ahrahamic traditions with Dharmic traditions is inherently difficult.
True. See newcomer Shlaymun's detailed post above.

Somewhere, on a Christian forum, someone is confidently pointing out that the Buddha recognised that people have selves because he said (in a really popular and early text, and I can even show you the Pali!) that we should be a light unto our selves. :thinking:
That is the teaching of early Buddhism Puggalavada.
Yes, my point was that on the imaginary Christian forum, there would be few other posters around who knew about that. Do you see the parallel here?
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Re: Jesus the Messiah and Buddha

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Shlaymun wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:59 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:40 pm It's very possible. Many Christians do and have done so. It is coherent? No. It is systematic theology? No. But it's more humane, so likely better for them in the long-run even if it makes less sense.
The argument in favour of universal salvation is in fact that universal salvation is more "coherent", in the sense that (simplistically put) "eternal damnation" would be very contrary to the idea of the infinite love of a benevolent God, and also contrary to the earlier Jewish understanding(s) of redemption and the afterlife (of course, there are arguments to the opposite, as is always the case...).
Origen lived before several seminal councils of the church defined more-precisely the doctrines of the Christian faith. He entertains a lot of ideas, for instance, in syncretism with Neoplatonism (not a bad thing). He was widely celebrated by certain sectors of the early church. He was also condemned as a heretic after his death. His belief in apocatastasis was one of those stances that damned him in the eyes of the church. Christians, generally speaking, hold a doctrine of the infallibility of the true church, which the doors of Hades cannot prevail against.

Belief in eternal damnation seems to have been at least semi-ubiquitous in first century Palestine and in first century Judaism in particular. The Mandaeans, also descended from this time (a related sect, tbh), also believed in an eternal hell. The Essene sect had an apocalyptic teaching similar to what is found in Revelations, complete with a lake of fire for all the bad sinners. So, though we don't find "hell" in ancient Israelite religion, it is at least plausible that, by Jesus's time, belief in everlasting hell for sinners was semi-mainstream, if not mainstream entirely. Of course there are exceptions, interesting exceptions. The Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead at all, so no heaven or hell for them, and they controlled the Jerusalem temple.

Certainly, lots of Christians throughout history have railed against the teaching, born of "systematic" or "philosophical" theology, using an "emotional theology," that deduces that the nonbeliever will be separated from the believer as branches are pruned from a tree and set into the fire. This is taken directly from Jesus's words in the New Testament, hence why people like Origen, who point out the incoherency between an infinitely loving, infinitely perfect, God with absolute power and his sending of persons to hell get called a heretic and become posthumously disfellowshipped by their communities. They asked the wrong questions. Christians have been trying to improve Christianity as long as it's been around. Sometimes it's two steps backwards for one forward.

All is merely my own opinion as a non-Christian who was raised in Methodism.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Jesus the Messiah and Buddha

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 5:14 pm the incoherency between an infinitely loving, infinitely perfect, God with absolute power and his sending of persons to hell
paradox


people send themselves to hell…


you can't convince them not to


:coffee:
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