Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Spiny Norman
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Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Thoughts?
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by dharmacorps »

The Buddha taught suffering and the end of suffering. One of the teachings related to that was not-self, anatta. What "anatman" is, I have no idea.
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Sam Vara »

I've been given an exercise called "searching for the self". The idea is to look at the khandhas and see whether the self is actually there; what do you think you actually are?

I think the idea is that I won't find it, though, and realise my attachment has been in vain!
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:48 pm I've been given an exercise called "searching for the self". The idea is to look at the khandhas and see whether the self is actually there; what do you think you actually are?

I think the idea is that I won't find it, though, and realise my attachment has been in vain!
You'd probably need to look deeper. It's more a heart thing than a head thing. Moving attention down.
I find the sheaths (koshas) model useful, it's similar to the aggregates, but allows you to go deeper.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:26 pm Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right? Thoughts?
Your phrasing implies a seeking, or searching for... whereas anatta is not a search - it is an understanding that every thing one has already found (or more specifically, "fabricated"), or could ever potentially find or fabricate in the future, is not self.

This is in keeping with the little exercise Sam was given.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

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retrofuturist wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:59 pm Greetings,
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:26 pm Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right? Thoughts?
Your phrasing implies a seeking, or searching for... whereas anatta is not a search - it is an understanding that every thing one has already found (or more specifically, fabricated), or could ever potentially find or fabricate in the future, is not self.

This is in keeping with the little exercise Sam was given.

Metta,
Paul. :)
I don't agree. It depends what you're looking for, and what your assumptions are.
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Sam Vara »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:52 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:48 pm I've been given an exercise called "searching for the self". The idea is to look at the khandhas and see whether the self is actually there; what do you think you actually are?

I think the idea is that I won't find it, though, and realise my attachment has been in vain!
You'd probably need to look deeper. It's more a heart thing than a head thing. Moving attention down.
I find the sheaths (koshas) model useful, it's similar to the aggregates, but allows you to go deeper.
I think we are pretty much at the crux of things here. On the one hand, every experience could be seen as part of a khandha, and thereby "discounted" as not self. And on the other hand, it might be that one has not had the correct experience yet.

What counts as "deeper", and what should I be looking for?
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:01 pm I don't agree. It depends what you're looking for, and what your assumptions are.
Of course, and you can search for whatever you like... but in your title you were presenting this as Buddhism, not Spinyism, so I think it's important to note there's no "hunt for anatta" in the Suttas, because it's a characteristic known only by negation, hence the a-prefix.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:06 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:52 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:48 pm I've been given an exercise called "searching for the self". The idea is to look at the khandhas and see whether the self is actually there; what do you think you actually are?

I think the idea is that I won't find it, though, and realise my attachment has been in vain!
You'd probably need to look deeper. It's more a heart thing than a head thing. Moving attention down.
I find the sheaths (koshas) model useful, it's similar to the aggregates, but allows you to go deeper.
I think we are pretty much at the crux of things here. On the one hand, every experience could be seen as part of a khandha, and thereby "discounted" as not self. And on the other hand, it might be that one has not had the correct experience yet.

What counts as "deeper", and what should I be looking for?
A stillness beneath the movement is one way of saying it. Looking within, rather than looking out. Your heart, rather than your head.
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

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retrofuturist wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:06 pm Greetings,
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:01 pm I don't agree. It depends what you're looking for, and what your assumptions are.
Of course, and you can search for whatever you like... but in your title you were presenting this as Buddhism, not Spinyism, so I think it's important to note there's no "hunt for anatta" in the Suttas, because it's a characteristic known only by negation, hence the a-prefix.

Metta,
Paul. :)
So Buddhism doesn't seek anatta? What does it seek then? You talk a lot about getting rid of "identification", so what's the difference?
Clearly Buddhism isn't seeking Atman, or true self, or whatever.
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:18 pm So Buddhism doesn't seek anatta? What does it seek then?
Release. Release from anything you might seek. That is the purpose of understanding the emptiness of all things... to reduce their fabrication, and reduce attachment to those fabrications.
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:18 pm You talk a lot about getting rid of "identification", so what's the difference?
It's just another fabrication to let go of. If it's let go of, the suffering from not letting go of it will no longer manifest (per the post in the other topic that you derided).
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:18 pm Clearly Buddhism isn't seeking Atman, or true self, or whatever.
Correct, so be mindful not to create your own.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by pegembara »

The Buddha uncovered anatta while seeking the solution to aging, sickness, and death. The problem is aging, sickness and death.
The solution is not immortality but amortality - being amortal.
"And what is the noble search? There is the case where a person, himself being subject to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeks the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Himself being subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeks the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, undefiled, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. This is the noble search.
"Monks, I will teach you the burden, the carrier of the burden, the taking up of the burden, and the casting off of the burden. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "And which is the burden? 'The five clinging-aggregates,' it should be said. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate: This, monks, is called the burden.

"And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name: This is called the carrier of the burden.

"And which is the taking up of the burden? The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This is called the taking up of the burden.

"And which is the casting off of the burden? The remainderless dispassion-cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving: This is called the casting off of the burden."
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by dharmacorps »

The whole point of anatta is that look where ever you may, the self is not to be found. At least, not in the way you think it is. So the search for the self is not bound to turn up much.
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Goofaholix »

I think we should look at the Buddhas teaching regarding this as a response to the prevailing teaching of the time. If this was that you should seek Anatman because experiencing Atman releases you from suffering the Buddhas response was that seeking an ideal outside of yourself causes suffering because there is no Atman to find so you should let go of that seeking.

Of course you can seek something that doesn't exist, this is called delusion, Atman doesn't exist and Anatta says even if it did it's not in the 5 aggregates of our experience.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Rambutan »

If someone asks, “who does the sky belong to?” You would answer, “it doesn’t belong to anyone. It’s just the sky, as it is.”
It’s the same with experience-without-self, or without an experiencer. Experience can occur without needing it to belong to anyone.
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