Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Rambutan
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Rambutan »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:25 am
Rambutan wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:18 am If not, then what’s the difference between not self and no self?
Not self is a (new) way of thinking

Sutta

No self is a way to the realm of Nothingness
What I mean is, explain the difference here between “no” and “not”. Just sharing the same sutta link doesn’t prove your point.
If “no self” implies annihilation, then why doesn’t “not self” also imply annihilation? That’s what I am asking you to explain.

Before, you said, “obviously you exist”. But, you can’t seem to explain “exist” in what sense? In what capacity? “Exist” implies a self. If not, then what are you saying “exists”?
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Rambutan
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Rambutan »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:56 pm I'm not saying there is a self
& I'm not saying there is no self
Previously, you did say
“Obviously you exist”.
How is that not declaring that a self exists?
If you aren’t referring to a self,
then, what are you saying exists?
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Rambutan
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Rambutan »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:25 am Not self is a (new) way of thinking
Sutta
No self is a way to the realm of Nothingness
In that sutta, the Buddha explains that form, feeling, the body, and so on are not a self. A self cannot be found among them. This is to correct anyone who might think, when asked to find where a self (atman) resides, they might say, “my body” or “my thoughts” or whatever. The point is that the Buddha is saying that one cannot find any ultimate “self” anywhere in those parts. He says the aggregates are “not-self” (according to this translation) but in this context, it’s exactly the same as saying “no self” or “not the self”. Here, he is not addressing the nihilistic view that nothing is occurring whatsoever, or addressing the two extremes of eternalism and annihilationism.

Nor is he saying that “not self” is some kind of thing that is found among aggregates. It’s not as though you can pick up a tooth and say that it is full of “not-self”.
Anatman is akin to sunnata. Just as sunnata isnt an independent quality, but can only describe apparent phenomena, likewise, atman (non self or no self) only describes a lack of inherent existence of being. Anatman is not a state of being. Not-self isn’t a state of being.

Non-self only occurs conditionally. It’s like a hole in the ground. There’s nothing filling the hole. The hole isn’t full of “hole-ness”. In fact, a hole isn’t really a thing at all. “Hole” only refers to a lack of ground, or a lack of fabric in a piece of cloth, a lack of calcium in a tooth or whatever.

Similarly, “no self” or “non self” or “not self” can only refer to a lack of intrinsic being in reference to body, thoughts, feelings, and so on.
Ontheway
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Ontheway »

In that sutta, the Buddha explains that form, feeling, the body, and so on are not a self. A self cannot be found among them. This is to correct anyone who might think, when asked to find where a self (atman) resides, they might say, “my body” or “my thoughts” or whatever. The point is that the Buddha is saying that one cannot find any ultimate “self” anywhere in those parts. He says the aggregates are “not-self” (according to this translation) but in this context, it’s exactly the same as saying “no self” or “not the self”. Here, he is not addressing the nihilistic view that nothing is occurring whatsoever, or addressing the two extremes of eternalism and annihilationism.
:thumbsup: sadhu ...
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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cappuccino
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by cappuccino »

Rambutan wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:25 am Previously, you did say “Obviously you exist”
How is that not declaring that a self exists?
If you aren’t referring to a self, then, what are you saying exists?
No-self or Not-self?
by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu

One of the first stumbling blocks that Westerners often encounter when they learn about Buddhism is the teaching on anatta


If there's no self, what experiences the results of kamma and takes rebirth?
Ontheway
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Ontheway »

If there's no self, what experiences the results of kamma and takes rebirth?
Rebirth doesn't need "self" to operate. If it does, the Buddha will say so. :thinking:

Venerable Piyadassi Thera answered that question a long time ago in his masterpiece "The Buddha's Ancient Path":
One with an inquiring mind may ask: “If there is no transmigrating permanent soul or self to reincarnate, what is it that is reborn?”

The answer is that there is no permanent substance of the nature of self or soul (ātman) that reincarnates or transmigrates.

It is impossible to conceive of anything that continues without change. All is in a state of flux. What we call life here is the functioning of the five aggregates of grasping, which we have discussed earlier, or the functioning of mind and body, which are only energies or forces. They are never the same for two consecutive moments, and in the conflux of mind and body we do not see anything permanent. The grown-up man is neither the child nor quite a different person; there is only a relationship of continuity. The conflux of mind and body or mental and physical energy is not lost at death, for no force or energy is ever lost. It undergoes change. It resets, re-forms in new conditions. This is called rebirth, re-existence or re becoming (punabbhava).
page 60

Well, I suggest you read this book - The Buddha's Ancient Path. It is one of the most authoritative contemporary works for Theravada Buddhism introduction, without distortion of Pāli Tipitaka teachings...

More like Theravada Buddhism 101.
Last edited by Ontheway on Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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cappuccino
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by cappuccino »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:31 pm Well, I suggest you read that book.
I prefer to learn from Buddha
Last edited by cappuccino on Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ontheway
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Ontheway »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:32 pm
Ontheway wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:31 pm Well, I suggest you read that book.
I prefer to learn from Buddha
Thanissaro ain't Buddha. :shrug:

I don't think he even understand the teaching well. Given that the lineage of his talks about eternal consciousness :shrug:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by cappuccino »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:34 pm Thanissaro ain't Buddha.

I don't think he even understand …
Thanissaro understands
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Ontheway »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:35 pm
Ontheway wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:34 pm Thanissaro ain't Buddha.

I don't think he even understand
Thanissaro understands
:coffee:

Well, at least I read his works. You don't even read others. I wonder who is more close- minded here?
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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cappuccino
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by cappuccino »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:37 pm I wonder who is more close- minded here?
worry about yourself
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Coëmgenu »

"Worry about your own head," says the man whose head is on fire, "I've got this."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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bodom
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by bodom »

Are we done with the pissing match yet? Please stop personalizing and follow the TOS on right speech. If we can't, posts will be immediately removed and the topic will be closed.

Thanks

:focus:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Rambutan
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by Rambutan »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:21 pm If there's no self, what experiences the results of kamma and takes rebirth?
That’s like asking, if a tiger chasing me in a dream isn’t real, how can I experience it as a nightmare?

What takes rebirth is the illusion of a self, that beings cling to out of ignorance. That’s the second Noble truth, the truth of the cause of suffering.

Actually, it is precisely because there is no permanent self (atman) that taking rebirth in various realms is possible. If there were such a self, it would arise unconditionally. Since going from one realm to another depends on conditionality, a “self” would not be affected by karma, and would not even experience samsara to begin with.


You still haven’t said where this “self” is.
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Re: Advaita seeks Atman, Buddhism seeks anatman, right?

Post by cappuccino »

Rambutan wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:35 pm You still haven’t said where this “self” is.
I don’t say there is a self
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