Difference between the realized one and learner

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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auto
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Difference between the realized one and learner

Post by auto »

learner,
https://suttacentral.net/sn46.42/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“Mendicants, when a Wheel-Turning Monarch appears seven treasures appear. What seven? The wheel, the elephant, the horse, the jewel, the woman, the treasurer, and the counselor. When a Wheel-Turning Monarch appears these seven treasures appear.
realized,
wrote:When a Realized One, a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha appears the seven treasures of the awakening factors appear. What seven? The treasures of the awakening factors of mindfulness, investigation of principles, energy, rapture, tranquility, immersion, and equanimity.
other Sutta example,
https://suttacentral.net/sn54.12/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: For if anything should be rightly called “the meditation of a noble one”, or else “the meditation of a Brahmā”, or else “the meditation of a realized one”, it’s immersion due to mindfulness of breathing.’

This is another way to understand how the meditation of a trainee and a realized one are different.”
i imputed the realized and learner, so take it as grain of salt.
Ontheway
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Re: Difference between the realized one and learner

Post by Ontheway »

There were eight kinds of person, seven kinds are Sekha, only one is Asekha.

Sekha aka Learner
Sotapatti Magga
Sotapatti Phala
Sakadagami Magga
Sakadagami Phala
Anagami Magga
Anagami Phala
Arahatta Magga

Asekha aka "Not Learner"
Arahatta Phala

Wheel Turning Monarch is not a Learner.
Just a super duper meritorious putthujjana Monarch with all kinds of fortunes. Though technically he can be learner, but when there is a Wheel Turning Monarch in the world, there will be no "Sammasambuddha". When there is no "Sammasambuddha", there will be no Buddha Sasana. Without Buddha Sasana, path-fruition attainment is impossible.

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/sekha.htm
:anjali: :buddha2:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
auto
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Re: Difference between the realized one and learner

Post by auto »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:03 pm Wheel Turning Monarch is not a Learner.
Just a super duper meritorious putthujjana Monarch with all kinds of fortunes. Though technically he can be learner, but when there is a Wheel Turning Monarch in the world, there will be no "Sammasambuddha". When there is no "Sammasambuddha", there will be no Buddha Sasana. Without Buddha Sasana, path-fruition attainment is impossible.

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/sekha.htm
:anjali: :buddha2:
I agree on that the wheel turning monarch is not learner.

Wheel Turning Monarch can do 4 jhāna's. And when he passes away then he will reborn in a brahma realm and develops there brahma viharas and when he passes away there then he is again reborn in brahma realm and at that(or those) time he was the realized one.
https://suttacentral.net/dn17/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:Then he entered the great foyer and sat on the golden couch. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, he entered and remained in the first absorption,..

When he passed away King Mahāsudassana was reborn in a good place, a Brahmā realm. ..
And having developed the four Brahmā meditations, when his body broke up, after death, he was reborn in a good place, a Brahmā realm.

Now, Ānanda, you might think: ‘Surely King Mahāsudassana must have been someone else at that time?’ But you should not see it like that. I myself was King Mahāsudassana at that time.
what are your thoughts on it?
auto
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Re: Difference between the realized one and learner

Post by auto »

another nice thing maybe,
https://suttacentral.net/dn17/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:Six times, Ānanda, I recall having laid down my body at this place. And the seventh time was as a wheel-turning monarch,
and
https://suttacentral.net/an4.67/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:And so I revere the Blessed One,
Sohaṁ namo bhagavato,
I revere the seven perfectly awakened Buddhas.”
Namo sattannaṁ sammāsambuddhānan”ti.
could be chakras? as of 7 main psychic centers in body?
Ontheway
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Re: Difference between the realized one and learner

Post by Ontheway »

Putthujjanas can achieve Jhanas too. Jhanas are not limited to Ariyapuggalas only.

So it is no surprise at all that Cakkavati Maharaja can achieve it. But the Jhanas here doesn't contribute to the escape from Samsara aka Nibbana.

Achieving Jhanas don't really automatically mean that person is a holy person in Buddhasasana. He/she can be very powerful in Jhanas, wielding various supernormal powers, peaceful etc. But this person will still subject to birth, ageing and death, as long as he/she did not abandon fetters such as Sakkaya-Ditthi, Vicikkiccha, etc.

"Namo sattannaṁ sammāsambuddhānanti"
This refers to the seven Sammasambuddhas. They are: Vipassi, Sikhi, Vessabhu, Kakusandha, Konagamana, Kassapa, and Gotama. They were all Sammasambuddha, supreme enlightened ones, all with same abilities with Supreme Enlightenment.

The present Sammasambuddha (Gotama) speaks about those past Sammasambuddhas in Mahapadana Sutta.
http://www.suttas.com/dn-14-mahapadana- ... neage.html

"Chakras" concept doesn't exists in Buddha Sasana. It is found in either Hindu culture or Japanese anime eg: Naruto.

:anjali: :buddha2:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
auto
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Re: Difference between the realized one and learner

Post by auto »

Ontheway wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:36 am "Chakras" concept doesn't exists in Buddha Sasana. It is found in either Hindu culture or Japanese anime eg: Naruto.
You could say that if you not know any better.
Ontheway wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:36 am Putthujjanas can achieve Jhanas too. Jhanas are not limited to Ariyapuggalas only.
difference between ariya and ordinary person is that the ariya knows about impermanence.
Ontheway wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:36 am Achieving Jhanas don't really automatically mean that person is a holy person in Buddhasasana. He/she can be very powerful in Jhanas, wielding various supernormal powers, peaceful etc. But this person will still subject to birth, ageing and death, as long as he/she did not abandon fetters such as Sakkaya-Ditthi, Vicikkiccha, etc.
ordinary person dies before devakaya expires, making him being part of the sakkaya.
Ontheway wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:36 am "Namo sattannaṁ sammāsambuddhānanti"
This refers to the seven Sammasambuddhas. They are: Vipassi, Sikhi, Vessabhu, Kakusandha, Konagamana, Kassapa, and Gotama. They were all Sammasambuddha, supreme enlightened ones, all with same abilities with Supreme Enlightenment.
when there is wheel turning monarch then the seven treasures are different from realized one's seven treasures.
Ontheway
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Re: Difference between the realized one and learner

Post by Ontheway »

No, Chakras concept DON'T exists in Buddhasasana. This concept cannot be found in Pāli Tipitaka.

To know impermanence only don't qualify one to be a Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, or Arahants. Even my Muslim and Muslimah friends know about impermanence. Even in Islam, the Imam preacher taught "everything in this world is short lived and impermanent." But does that mean Muslim Imam preacher is Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami or Arahants? No.

And the term "Sakkaya" is wrongly interpreted by you. "Sakkaya" in Pāli:

sakkāya : (m.) the existing body.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/sakkaya#pali

Which often combined with Ditthi, forming the term called

sakkāyadiṭṭhi: theory of soul, heresy of individuality, speculation as to the eternity or otherwise of one’s own individuality.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/sakkayaditthi

The seven treasures of Cakkavati Maharaja is totally a different thing away from "Seven Sammasambuddhas". They are not the same thing. To say they are the same thing is like saying "Hamburgers is Disney", "USA is a finger nail", "Dust is talking snake".

Which is nonsense.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
auto
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Re: Difference between the realized one and learner

Post by auto »

Ontheway wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:57 pm ..
the suttas on op are close, sn46., sn54.. You can at least compare the way like i did.
best example of this type of comparison is,
sn12.40 and sn12.39 where you can guess nati is namarupa. Sutta doesn't equate like this, thus by your logic this doesn't exist in Suttas.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.40/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:When consciousness is established and grows, there is an inclination.
Tasmiṁ patiṭṭhite viññāṇe virūḷhe nati hoti.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.39/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:When consciousness is established, name and form are conceived.
Tasmiṁ patiṭṭhite viññāṇe virūḷhe nāmarūpassa avakkanti hoti.
Ontheway
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Re: Difference between the realized one and learner

Post by Ontheway »

Are you saying Viññāṇa is Chakras?

Did any Sutta, any Gatha, any Veyyakara, any Patha, any Abhidhamma, any Atthakatha mentioned that Viññāṇa is Chakras?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra
And what this Chakras thing has to do with Pāli tradition of Buddhism?
nati is namarupa
Is that interpretation has to do with Buddha's explanation on Nāmarūpa? :shrug:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Difference between the realized one and learner

Post by Coëmgenu »

The cakra thing is out to lunch. There are cakras in Buddhist Tantra, because Buddhist Tantra is a syncretic religion. There is a very primitive version of cakra-theory in some East Asian esotericisms too, but it is quite different from the Tibetan version.

The "nati" thing though has precedence. Ven Buddhaghosa relates how nama "bends" (namati). "Nati" seems to be a version of this.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
auto
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Re: Difference between the realized one and learner

Post by auto »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:21 pm The "nati" thing though has precedence. Ven Buddhaghosa relates how nama "bends" (namati). "Nati" seems to be a version of this.
here is a thread about nati and buddhagosa,
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34212
auto
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Re: Difference between the realized one and learner

Post by auto »

Ontheway wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:13 pm Are you saying Viññāṇa is Chakras?
no, but what is your orthodox explanation to the number 84 000?
Ontheway
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Re: Difference between the realized one and learner

Post by Ontheway »

auto wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:30 pm
Ontheway wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:13 pm Are you saying Viññāṇa is Chakras?
no, but what is your orthodox explanation to the number 84 000?
In what sense? This number often used in Suttas and Atthakatha to describe many different things.

Does it has anything to do with Chakras?
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
auto
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Re: Difference between the realized one and learner

Post by auto »

Ontheway wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:32 pm
auto wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:30 pm
Ontheway wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:13 pm Are you saying Viññāṇa is Chakras?
no, but what is your orthodox explanation to the number 84 000?
In what sense? This number often used in Suttas and Atthakatha to describe many different things.
In Suttas there are many things what might later make sense so i wouldn't go rush with there is no mention of psychic centers, more so if there are talked about psychic phenomena.
Ontheway wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:32 pm Does it has anything to do with Chakras?
could be
Ontheway
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Re: Difference between the realized one and learner

Post by Ontheway »

nick-young-confused-face-300x256-nqlyaa.jpg
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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