Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
davidbrainerd
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by davidbrainerd »

Modus.Ponens wrote:Regarding the above quotes from the Buddha I don't see them as dualistic. The process of letting go body, sensations, perceptions, volitions and consciousness lays bare the following: since there is nothing else that constitutes a person, when every constituent is abandoned as being not self, there is nothing left to even be considered self. So there is no self.

As for Ingram's teachings, I think they are compatible with some hermeneutical approaches to the suttas. If you try to be make a charitable interpretation of his writings, I think it is the case of the mentioned paragraph that it is compatible with buddhist doctrine.
His teaching is that arhats have neither cut off the taints nor fetters...there is no hermeneutical approach that can make that work with the suttas other than the hermeneutic of dishonesty.

His interpretation of anatta, on the otherhand, we could argue about forever, as with any other interpretation of anatta. But his interpretation of arhats, and thus of the goal and whole point of Buddhism is unquestionably wrong and thus irredeemable.
Inedible
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 am
Location: Iowa City
Contact:

Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Inedible »

Is there some way to read through all 68 pages of this without having to click through?
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 5686
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Dhammanando »

Inedible wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:01 am Is there some way to read through all 68 pages of this without having to click through?
I don't think so. But if you don't wish to read all of it, page 2 alone should suffice to show how radical a breach there is between Ingram Dhamma and Buddha Dhamma.
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
User avatar
Mahabrahma
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:02 am

Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Mahabrahma »

Reading page 2, and Dhammanando's informative post it seems to me like Ingram is taking the approach from a unique perspective on how the Dhamma is to be interpreted by seeming to deny some core aspects, but I don't think He is denying them, just expanding them with modern terminology from a certain point of view. I wouldn't take His approach, and I oppose denying the Buddhist Truth in any real school of Buddhism, but He seems to be preaching to an audience who want to take a stance on the Suttas that entail an inconceivable to some aspect of an Arhat or a Buddha with regards to their behaviour. Gautama Buddha could be that drunk on the street, Enlightening the homeless people living in tents, so that in twenty years they can all meet in a monestary. Are we to ignore and mistreat, or shun the Tathagata in such conditions, or tell Him He is not following His own Suttas? Are we to deny the Buddha in a lowly condition? We need to have an approach of Mahakaruna and I am glad there are many different approaches to Buddhism and I am thankful for that, and I am glad there are those who are wise enough to see things as they are.

I fully respect complete adherence to the written Dhamma, because it won't fail you if you are a True Buddhist. These are very troubling times for human society, so I think the Dhamma and Buddhism is the best cure. Send waves of Metta to our Buddhist brothers and sisters, and throughout the rest of humanity. :namaste:

:buddha1:
SteRo
Posts: 3549
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: अ धीः

Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by SteRo »

Dhammanando wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:23 am ... page 2 alone should suffice to show how radical a breach there is between Ingram Dhamma and Buddha Dhamma.
That hint has stirred my ignorant curiosity to read on page 2 because usually I am not interested in what self-proclaimed teachers have to say. Nevertheless it's been informative and to learn about present day developments in terms of dhamma/buddhisms can have some benefits in terms of getting clear knowledge about one's own views and how one experiences these novel views of what might be called "heretics" from the perspective of theravada tradition. Maybe what Ingram teaches may be called a variant of novel "secular buddhism"? It is certainly influenced by Mahayana thought because the Mahayana traditionally works on pulling down the doctrinal barriers between "the world" and "the enlightened". It also seems to be based on the affirmation of self views.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
Inedible
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 am
Location: Iowa City
Contact:

Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Inedible »

Maybe we just need a new thread. And only let people in who have read his book.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 17920
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by mikenz66 »

Here's a more recent thread that includes a link to Bhikkhu Analayo's critique:
https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&p=562699

:heart:
Mike
SteRo
Posts: 3549
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: अ धीः

Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by SteRo »

Inedible wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:26 am Maybe we just need a new thread. And only let people in who have read his book.
Why? Are you dissatisfied with Gotama's teachings and looking for something else?
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
Inedible
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 am
Location: Iowa City
Contact:

Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Inedible »

It is nice to think that there are still people in the world who have followed Buddha's teachings to the end and gotten the results. People who can answer questions about what they did and how it felt. People who can say which teachings they emphasized and which ones they had trouble with. This is why we also have the Sangha and not just Buddha and Dharma.
SteRo
Posts: 3549
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am
Location: अ धीः

Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by SteRo »

Inedible wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:54 am It is nice to think that there are still people in the world who have followed Buddha's teachings to the end and gotten the results. People who can answer questions about what they did and how it felt. People who can say which teachings they emphasized and which ones they had trouble with. This is why we also have the Sangha and not just Buddha and Dharma.
Ingram certainly hasn't followed "Buddha's teachings to the end and gotten the results" Gotama talked about. At some point he obviously took another direction and ended up with a different result. That is not meant to denigrate his result but it obviously it isn't the result Gotama talked about.
The forum knows a forum user who also claimed to have attained nibbana. Nobody knows what that user has attained but he obviously deviated from Gotama's teachings.
i guess there are many in this world who claim having attained nibbana referring to Gotama but actually have attained something different.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 3570
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:06 pm
Inedible wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:54 am It is nice to think that there are still people in the world who have followed Buddha's teachings to the end and gotten the results. People who can answer questions about what they did and how it felt. People who can say which teachings they emphasized and which ones they had trouble with. This is why we also have the Sangha and not just Buddha and Dharma.
Ingram certainly hasn't followed "Buddha's teachings to the end and gotten the results" Gotama talked about. At some point he obviously took another direction and ended up with a different result. That is not meant to denigrate his result but it obviously it isn't the result Gotama talked about.
The forum knows a forum user who also claimed to have attained nibbana. Nobody knows what that user has attained but he obviously deviated from Gotama's teachings.
i guess there are many in this world who claim having attained nibbana referring to Gotama but actually have attained something different.
True
dont think
Inedible
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 am
Location: Iowa City
Contact:

Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Inedible »

I don't really care if Daniel Ingram or Culadasa or Jed McKenna is Enlightened. Mostly I just want them to tell me a story and be convincing about it. It just has to say keep going because you can do this.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 3570
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by confusedlayman »

Inedible wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:56 pm I don't really care if Daniel Ingram or Culadasa or Jed McKenna is Enlightened. Mostly I just want them to tell me a story and be convincing about it. It just has to say keep going because you can do this.
Im not enlightened but i must say u can do this and attain nirvana if u work towards it
dont think
Inedible
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 am
Location: Iowa City
Contact:

Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Inedible »

Could you please make that more convincing? Maybe wrap it up in a good story?
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 3570
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by confusedlayman »

Inedible wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:35 pm Could you please make that more convincing? Maybe wrap it up in a good story?
If u have desire to be liberated, ears to hear dhamma, brain to ponder dhamma, eyes to read dhamma, mouth to talk dhamma and discuss with other monks or laypeople.. what else u need?
dont think
Post Reply