Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Mahabrahma »

I am glad so many have drawn attention to this man. Even great monks are taking the time to read from His work and take the time to provide their analytical hypothesis, striving for a reason. Perhaps there is a deeper level to all of this?
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Crazy cloud »

Mahabrahma wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:26 am I am glad so many have drawn attention to this man. Even great monks are taking the time to read from His work and take the time to provide their analytical hypothesis, striving for a reason. Perhaps there is a deeper level to all of this?
As far as I know, there is one single monk, great or not so great, that has taken the time and effort to investigate his claims. The rest is spiritual seekers with all of their different points of view, and that circus is business as usual ...
I don't know about his attainments, but regard his insensitive and rude comments about Theravada as hurtful and totally unnecessary.
A far better solution would be to claim he was enlightened or awake, and not use Theravada to make so much fuss about himself.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by tamdrin »

If you read the biography of Ajahn Mun you will see how hard he practiced to experience the fruit or Arahantship. Even if you don't accept he attained he then you have to accept he strived so hard not to attain it.

It doesn't seem possible that a layperson in todays world could attain arahantship. Highly unlikely.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by auto »

SteRo wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:57 pm
auto wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:14 pm
SteRo wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:07 am

I have never been talking about my "methods" but about the doctrine and Ingrams deviation from the doctrine which the Venerable has revealed on page 2. So it seems we are not on the same page.
Ingram claims that the text contain apocryphal statements, so from his perspective you are following and believing in the over the top mystical qualities what enlightened being possesses.
I am neither following nor believing anything but I can compare the verbal expressions of doctrine with the verbal expressions of Ingram as quoted on page 2 by the Venerable. And this comparisons shows that Ingram deviates from doctrine. So the attainments Gotama talked about and the attainments Ingram talked about are not the same. So obviously at some point Ingram took another direction. His problem is that he does not proclaim a new doctrine putting Gotama and buddhism aside but that he asserts that the tradition has gotten it wrong - and that seems to be a problem of conceit.
For you Ingram deviates from the doctrine, because what is said doesn't comply with what you think are describing Arhant's daily life - You need decide that much in order to come into conclusions that you actually not talking about attainment but daily life. Ingram seem also meaning daily life and compares it with his prolly post attainment thinking.

There are breakthroughs/attainments what are feeling like you have no desire anymore and feel that you have no burden anymore etc. It sure is temporal but at that moment you are convinced that it will stay. Same way as if someone is convinced about his/her depression and suffering when that stage is on.
Last edited by auto on Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by SteRo »

auto wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:55 pm
SteRo wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:57 pm
auto wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:14 pm
Ingram claims that the text contain apocryphal statements, so from his perspective you are following and believing in the over the top mystical qualities what enlightened being possesses.
I am neither following nor believing anything but I can compare the verbal expressions of doctrine with the verbal expressions of Ingram as quoted on page 2 by the Venerable. And this comparisons shows that Ingram deviates from doctrine. So the attainments Gotama talked about and the attainments Ingram talked about are not the same. So obviously at some point Ingram took another direction. His problem is that he does not proclaim a new doctrine putting Gotama and buddhism aside but that he asserts that the tradition has gotten it wrong - and that seems to be a problem of conceit.
For you Ingram deviates from the doctrine, because what is said doesn't comply with what you think are describing Arhant's daily life - You need decide that much in order to come into conclusions that you actually not talking about attainment but daily life. Ingram seem also meaning daily life and compares it with his prolly post attainment thinking.

There are breakthroughs/attainments what are feeling like you have no desire anymore and feel that you have no burden anymore etc. It sure is temporal but at that moment you are convinced. Same way as if someone is convinced about his/her depression and suffering when that stage is on.
To my knowledge the doctrine does not describe an arahant's daily life. The doctrine however says that arahants have abandoned cankers and if Ingram denies this then this is his deviation from doctrine.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Mahabrahma »

tamdrin wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:35 am If you read the biography of Ajahn Mun you will see how hard he practiced to experience the fruit or Arahantship. Even if you don't accept he attained he then you have to accept he strived so hard not to attain it.

It doesn't seem possible that a layperson in todays world could attain arahantship. Highly unlikely.
If someone believes something is very hard to attain, it may be hard to attain. In this world there are many ways to read Buddhist Dhamma that leads us to Enlightenment, but I believe Enlightenment is a state that everyone is supposed to be in, and those that are not in that state have to get to it. It's for everyone, so if we all believe that is the purpose of the Buddha's Mahamaitri, we won't limit our thinking on who can attain Enlightenment to sect or caste, or even Species. I believe a blade of grass can do it. Life is marvelous so don't disbelieve in it's power. Everything we do as good people in this world is for Enlightenment, every good and positive action is a step towards Enlightenment and that inner state when one reaches it can be described as an agreement with the Buddha on everything, or a surrender of who you are in order to become exactly like the Buddha, and that is the state we are all supposed to be in. :anjali:
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by auto »

SteRo wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:01 pm
auto wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:55 pm
SteRo wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:57 pm

I am neither following nor believing anything but I can compare the verbal expressions of doctrine with the verbal expressions of Ingram as quoted on page 2 by the Venerable. And this comparisons shows that Ingram deviates from doctrine. So the attainments Gotama talked about and the attainments Ingram talked about are not the same. So obviously at some point Ingram took another direction. His problem is that he does not proclaim a new doctrine putting Gotama and buddhism aside but that he asserts that the tradition has gotten it wrong - and that seems to be a problem of conceit.
For you Ingram deviates from the doctrine, because what is said doesn't comply with what you think are describing Arhant's daily life - You need decide that much in order to come into conclusions that you actually not talking about attainment but daily life. Ingram seem also meaning daily life and compares it with his prolly post attainment thinking.

There are breakthroughs/attainments what are feeling like you have no desire anymore and feel that you have no burden anymore etc. It sure is temporal but at that moment you are convinced. Same way as if someone is convinced about his/her depression and suffering when that stage is on.
To my knowledge the doctrine does not describe an arahant's daily life. The doctrine however says that arahants have abandoned cankers and if Ingram denies this then this is his deviation from doctrine.
what cankers, those what prevent one from attaining cessation of perception and feeling?
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by SteRo »

auto wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:54 pm
SteRo wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:01 pm
auto wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:55 pm
For you Ingram deviates from the doctrine, because what is said doesn't comply with what you think are describing Arhant's daily life - You need decide that much in order to come into conclusions that you actually not talking about attainment but daily life. Ingram seem also meaning daily life and compares it with his prolly post attainment thinking.

There are breakthroughs/attainments what are feeling like you have no desire anymore and feel that you have no burden anymore etc. It sure is temporal but at that moment you are convinced. Same way as if someone is convinced about his/her depression and suffering when that stage is on.
To my knowledge the doctrine does not describe an arahant's daily life. The doctrine however says that arahants have abandoned cankers and if Ingram denies this then this is his deviation from doctrine.
what cankers, those what prevent one from attaining cessation of perception and feeling?
See the Venerable's post on page 2.

Actually you should be discussing with the Venerable not with me because I am only referring to the Venerable's posts on page 2. I have never read anything about Mr Ingram before. But I am generally interested in the phenomenon of attainment claims which I find kind of bizarre.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by auto »

SteRo wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:38 pm
auto wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:54 pm
SteRo wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:01 pm

To my knowledge the doctrine does not describe an arahant's daily life. The doctrine however says that arahants have abandoned cankers and if Ingram denies this then this is his deviation from doctrine.
what cankers, those what prevent one from attaining cessation of perception and feeling?
See the Venerable's post on page 2.

Actually you should be discussing with the Venerable not with me because I am only referring to the Venerable's posts on page 2. I have never read anything about Mr Ingram before. But I am generally interested in the phenomenon of attainment claims which I find kind of bizarre.
I agree on the notion that one can't do things when there is no cause what allows them to do. Like queen bee has pheromones to control the hive but once this pheromone stops then there will be no control anymore. Or silverback only grows on alpha male.

Biological causes thus the 'attainments' what are on par with tangible evidence which are not just nano movements on brain scan but superhuman feats, reverse aging, fast healing.
But here is a thing, it takes supposedly 9 years before all cells are replaced, so if you breakthrough and mind develops it takes time before it is written into body and then next breakthrough.. you will discover things to have better insights so on.
Point is it takes time till there are cells what doesn't follow old patters. Cells contain brain of their own and do things what they do. And eventually cells will know how to replace broken teeth too.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by confusedlayman »

Arhants cant live household life
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:25 am Arhants cant live household life
Do you mean in order to participate in the affairs of the household life you need identity view? if so, then why one can't assume one, as it is done in the sutta sn1.25?
I propose that this kind of claims are made in retrospect to either one has identity view or not. So if you understand that, then the list what arhant( someone who has no identity view) can't do you can make more claims. I propose one can't even move his hands without fabricating identity.

also what about agreeing with the world, things what are suggested to you, so you can comply and do and thus not have to fabricate?

what are your thoughts on this? what is the reasoning behind the claim you posted?
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Inedible »

Part of the problem is that we are like Ananda. He insisted on being present whenever Buddha was teaching to various people and now we have access to what was said. The best and most useful answers given to some people tended to contradict what was given to others. If we were to ask Buddha directly he would tell us the answer that we individually need and we could practice accordingly. Now we can read all the answers and pick the ones we want instead. If you have a job and family and are lucky enough to have a cat 🐈 in your home and you choose to believe a householder can't become an Arhat you could use that to justify giving up too easily.

As for Daniel Ingram, he admits that he has a harsh style of teaching in his book. He suggests other authors who have different ways of teaching. He advises reading them even if you like his approach as a way to ensure remaining balanced.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:15 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:25 am Arhants cant live household life
Do you mean in order to participate in the affairs of the household life you need identity view? if so, then why one can't assume one, as it is done in the sutta sn1.25?
I propose that this kind of claims are made in retrospect to either one has identity view or not. So if you understand that, then the list what arhant( someone who has no identity view) can't do you can make more claims. I propose one can't even move his hands without fabricating identity.

also what about agreeing with the world, things what are suggested to you, so you can comply and do and thus not have to fabricate?

what are your thoughts on this? what is the reasoning behind the claim you posted?
household life is dusty and virtues cant be practiced like blameless style... or like shining vessel...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:25 am Arhants cant live household life
At least there is no mention in the suttas of an arahant's (in-)capacity to live a life of a householder ... to my knowledge but I would be happy to receive a sutta quote clarifying that (in-)capacity. But in case there is no mention in the doctrine why speculate about it?
I think one should discipline oneself to not go beyond the doctrine. Otherwise one follows the path of Ingram, i.e. one deviates from doctrine.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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