What did the Buddha have to say about God?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: What did the Buddha have to say about God?

Post by tiltbillings »

5heaps wrote:quote]its the same word. the Buddha said all conditioned things are impermanent/anicca/momentary
Not really, not in the terms of the Abhidhamma/Abhidharma: "The doctrine of momentariness [khan.a/ks.an.a] is also a late addition to Theravada thought. " [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhidhamma_Pitaka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ]
The study begins by examining early canonical and post-canonical Abhidharma literature, and von Rospatt demonstrates that although phenomena are frequently described as impermanent (anitya), they are not said to be momentary. He then discusses the doctrines of Hiinayaana traditions that accepted the doctrine of momentariness, arguing that the Vaatsputriiyas and Sa.mmatiiyas only accepted the momentariness of mental events and that in their earliest literature Theravaadins did not assert the doctrine of momentariness. The Sarvaastivaadins and related traditions, however, did assert that all conditioned entities are momentary. http://blogs.dickinson.edu/buddhistethi ... wer981.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Momerntariness is not quite an accurate or appropriate word to necessarily use as a synonym of anicca. 5heaps statement would better stated this way: Buddha taught imperamanence. this means no functioning object can endure of its own accord.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Paññāsikhara
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: What did the Buddha have to say about God?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

"anicca" and "khana" are two different words, though the latter is inexplicably tied up with the former.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: What did the Buddha have to say about God?

Post by tiltbillings »

Paññāsikhara wrote:"anicca" and "khana" are two different words, though the latter is inexplicably tied up with the former.
Yes, but they are not interchangeable words.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: What did the Buddha have to say about God?

Post by cooran »

tiltbillings wrote:
5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Show us, using the Pali suttas, since this is a Theravadin forum, that the Buddha taught Abhidhamma/Abhidharma momentariness.
really? "All conditioned things are impermanent" (ie. anicca, inconstant)
Are you equating anicca with Abhidhamm/Abhdharma momentariness?
Hello Tilt,

Part of a discussion at DSG on Understanding Momentariness. It may be a little different to what you suppose:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/106148" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
read following posts at the foot of this post.

With metta
Chris
Last edited by cooran on Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: What did the Buddha have to say about God?

Post by tiltbillings »

cooran wrote: Hello Tilt,

Part of a discussion at DSG on Understanding Momentariness. It may be a little different to what you suppose:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/106148" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
read following posts at the foot of this post.

With metta
Chris
Thanks. This link rather nicely exemplifies when Abhidhamma goes wrong. The issue I am responding to, which is simply an historical one, is claim that the Buddha taught momentariness, but the idea of khan.a, momentariness, is not found in the suttas, and really is not found in the Theravada until it was introduced by Buddhaghosa nearly a thousand years after the Buddha's death.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: What did the Buddha have to say about God?

Post by cooran »

Tilt said: This link rather nicely exemplifies when Abhidhamma goes wrong.
Where and how?

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: What did the Buddha have to say about God?

Post by tiltbillings »

cooran wrote:
Tilt said: This link rather nicely exemplifies when Abhidhamma goes wrong.
Where and how?
In the fundamental way the idea that dhammas are things in some sort of ultimate sense. I have repeatedly said that the Theravada does not need Nagarjuna, but when I read stuff like that, I have to wonder if I am dead wrong.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
5heaps
Posts: 334
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:19 am

Re: What did the Buddha have to say about God?

Post by 5heaps »

tiltbillings wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote:"anicca" and "khana" are two different words, though the latter is inexplicably tied up with the former.
Yes, but they are not interchangeable words.
ok

if you dont accept that things are momentary, you have to explain what THING is impermanent. because we already did. the thing which is impermanent is the thing which is momentary (maintains its characteristic nature as it is undergoing subtlest change). for us its simple -- impermanent thing, momentary thing, conditioned thing and functioning thing are all equivalent.
until it was introduced by Buddhaghosa nearly a thousand years after the Buddha's death.
at best you could say that it was the first time it was explicitly written down, etcetc. everyone in history except you accepts momentariness, either in a truly existent aspect or a nontruly existent aspect.
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: What did the Buddha have to say about God?

Post by tiltbillings »

5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote:"anicca" and "khana" are two different words, though the latter is inexplicably tied up with the former.
Yes, but they are not interchangeable words.
ok

if you dont accept that things are momentary, you have to explain what THING is impermanent. because we already did. the thing which is impermanent is the thing which is momentary (maintains its characteristic nature as it is undergoing subtlest change). for us its simple -- impermanent thing, momentary thing, conditioned thing and functioning thing are all equivalent.
until it was introduced by Buddhaghosa nearly a thousand years after the Buddha's death.
at best you could say that it was the first time it was explicitly written down, etcetc. everyone in history except you accepts momentariness, either in a truly existent aspect or a nontruly existent aspect.
The early Theravadins did not, nor is it in the Pali suttas, which means that the Buddha did not, nor is it a matter only being written down with Buddhaghosa. If it had been part of the Theravadin doctrine, it would have shown up long ago before Buddhaghosa. You have offered nothing but your unsupported word for your position. Now, if you want to discuss this further, this is not the thread. Back to the topic/OP.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
notself
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: What did the Buddha have to say about God?

Post by notself »

tiltbillings wrote:The early Theravadins did not, nor is it in the Pali suttas, which means that the Buddha did not, nor is it a matter only being written down with Buddhaghosa. If it had been part of the Theravadin doctrine, it would have shown up long ago before Buddhaghosa. You have offered nothing but your unsupported word for your position. Now, if you want to discuss this further, this is not the thread. Back to the topic/OP.
Here are the synonyms for momentary:

Related to MOMENTARY
Synonyms: brief, deciduous, ephemeral, evanescent, flash, fleeting, fugacious, fugitive, impermanent, passing, short-lived, temporary, transient, transitory

I don't see what the problem is. Please explain.
Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: What did the Buddha have to say about God?

Post by tiltbillings »

notself wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The early Theravadins did not, nor is it in the Pali suttas, which means that the Buddha did not, nor is it a matter only being written down with Buddhaghosa. If it had been part of the Theravadin doctrine, it would have shown up long ago before Buddhaghosa. You have offered nothing but your unsupported word for your position. Now, if you want to discuss this further, this is not the thread. Back to the topic/OP.
Here are the synonyms for momentary:

Related to MOMENTARY
Synonyms: brief, deciduous, ephemeral, evanescent, flash, fleeting, fugacious, fugitive, impermanent, passing, short-lived, temporary, transient, transitory

I don't see what the problem is. Please explain.
Within Buddhism, in general, "momentariness" - khan.a - is a doctrine of instaneous change. This was not taught in the suttas or even the Abhidhamma Pitaka texts. It is something that got introduced into the Theravada with Buddhaghosa about 1,000 years after the Buddha's death. As has been pointed out anicca and khan.a are not doctrinal synonyms. This comes out of the later idea of dhammas being little atomy thingies which led to the idea of dhammas instaneously popping into and out of existence, which is momentariness, khan.a. Anicca is not described that way in the suttas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: What did the Buddha have to say about God?

Post by Nyana »

Reply moved here to avoid taking this thread off topic.
Last edited by Nyana on Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Laurens
Posts: 765
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:56 pm

Re: What did the Buddha have to say about God?

Post by Laurens »

I have a distinct sense that he would roll his eyes at sights such as this:
Image

For a lot of people, Buddha is God, perhaps not fulfilling the role of creator, but fulfilling the role of saviour. I think this is something the Buddha would be displeased with.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
User avatar
Kim OHara
Posts: 5584
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: What did the Buddha have to say about God?

Post by Kim OHara »

Laurens wrote:I have a distinct sense that he would roll his eyes at sights such as this:
[statue pic]
For a lot of people, Buddha is God, perhaps not fulfilling the role of creator, but fulfilling the role of saviour. I think this is something the Buddha would be displeased with.
Roll his eyes? I think he would be quite displeased and disappointed, since the whole emphasis of his teaching for forty years was DIY and here we see people relapsing into reliance on higher authority and salvation from above.
On the other hand, I doubt that he would be surprised. He must have had hundreds of people coming to listen to him in the hope of a magical revelation that would make everything all right without any effort on their own part.
Sigh.

:namaste:
Kim
notself
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: What did the Buddha have to say about God?

Post by notself »

tiltbillings wrote:Within Buddhism, in general, "momentariness" - khan.a - is a doctrine of instaneous change. This was not taught in the suttas or even the Abhidhamma Pitaka texts. It is something that got introduced into the Theravada with Buddhaghosa about 1,000 years after the Buddha's death. As has been pointed out anicca and khan.a are not doctrinal synonyms. This comes out of the later idea of dhammas being little atomy thingies which led to the idea of dhammas instaneously popping into and out of existence, which is momentariness, khan.a. Anicca is not described that way in the suttas.
Sounds a bit like quantum physics.
Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103
Post Reply