Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

[Ceisiwr]

Rebirth is going to be a challenging belief- maybe the more challenging thing is trying to find something which doesn't entail any belief of any sort, at all.

with metta

Like the four noble truths? There not a belief system

[tiltbillings]

Like the four noble truths? There [sic] not a belief system

Do you believe that?

[Ceisiwr]

Like the four noble truths? There [sic] not a belief system

Tilt -Do you believe that?

If they were a belief system then there would be no knowledge of them, I would just believe them

Belief and knowledge are different


So for me I know they are not a belief system, since I have knowledge of them


The idea of them as a belief system seems to go against the Buddha-way of "come and see"

Know for yourself dont just believe them

[tiltbillings]

Like the four noble truths? There [sic] not a belief system

Tilt -Do you believe that?

If they were a belief system then there would be no knowledge of them, I would just believe them

Belief and knowledge are different


So for me I know they are not a belief system, since I have knowledge of them


The idea of them as a belief system seems to go against the Buddha-way of "come and see"

Know for yourself dont just believe them

What surprises me is the rather unsophisicated approach here. If you had knowledge of the Four Noble Truths, you would be awakened. The FNT are tools, picked up to do a job. If there were no belief initially concerning the FNT, there would be no picking them up, there would be no ehipassiko, come and see.

Belief is not an end, but a tool to accomplish an end.

[Wizard in the Forest]

He already said it's not a belief. It's something that is experienced. What are you talking about. :cookoo:

[tiltbillings]

He already said it's not a belief. It's something that is experienced. What are you talking about.

Just because Craig said the belief in the FNT is not a belief, I am supposed to believe that?

[Wizard in the Forest]

No, you can let go of attachment to belief, and stop obsessing about it. =) It ultimately doesn't matter whether you believe in the four noble truths, because it's like a raft that once you get to the other shore, you can let it go too. Don't worry about believing, focus on the eightfold path.

[Ceisiwr]

No, you can let go of attachment to belief, and stop obsessing about it. =) It ultimately doesn't matter whether you believe in the four noble truths, because it's like a raft that once you get to the other shore, you can let it go too. Don't worry about believing, focus on the eightfold path.

Tis a great shame to hold onto

[tiltbillings]

No, you can let go of attachment to belief, and stop obsessing about it. =) It ultimately doesn't matter whether you believe in the four noble truths, because it's like a raft that once you get to the other shore, you can let it go too. Don't worry about believing, focus on the eightfold path.

And who here is advocating attachment to or obsessing about belief?

Does it matter if one believes in the FNT? Probably, because if you didn't, you could not put them into practice. And one cannot let go of the raft too soon.

[Wizard in the Forest]

Suppose, monks, there is a man journeying on a road and he sees a vast expanse of water of which this shore is perilous and fearful, while the other shore is safe and free from danger. But there is no boat for crossing nor is there a bridge for going over from this side to the other. So the man thinks: 'This is a vast expanse of water; and this shore is perilous and fearful, but the other shore is safe and free from danger. There is, however, no boat here for crossing, nor a bridge for going over from this side to the other. Suppose I gather reeds, sticks, branches and foliage, and bind them into a raft.' Now that man collects reeds, sticks, branches and foliage, and binds them into a raft. Carried by that raft, laboring with hands and feet, he safely crosses over to the other shore. Having crossed and arrived at the other shore, he thinks: 'This raft, indeed, has been very helpful to me. Carried by it, laboring with hands and feet, I got safely across to the other shore. Should I not lift this raft on my head or put it on my shoulders, and go where I like?'

"What do you think about it, O monks? Will this man by acting thus, do what should be done with a raft?" — "No, Lord" — "How then, monks, would he be doing what ought to be done with a raft? Here, monks, having got across and arrived at the other shore, the man thinks: 'This raft, indeed, has been very helpful to me. Carried by it, and laboring with hands and feet, I got safely across to the other shore. Should I not pull it up now to the dry land or let it float in the water, and then go as I please?' By acting thus, monks, would that man do what should be done with a raft.

"In the same way, monks, have I shown to you the Teaching's similitude to a raft: as having the purpose of crossing over, not the purpose of being clung to.

"You, O monks, who understand the Teaching's similitude to a raft, you should let go even (good) teachings, how much more false ones!

[andre9999]

Does it matter if one believes in the FNT? Probably, because if you didn't, you could not put them into practice. And one cannot let go of the raft too soon.

Great... Another thread deteriorating into a discussion of semantics, full of harsh tones of speech, and way off topic.

For what it's worth, I didn't believe in the four noble truths when I started, and I'm still not 100% sure. They seemed to be worth a shot, so I tried them.

As for reincarnation/rebirth, I still don't know yet. Hell, I don't even call myself a Buddhist. I'm just trying to reduce my suffering and the suffering of the people I interact with, and it seems that following the path helps me in that goal.

[tiltbillings]

Does it matter if one believes in the FNT? Probably, because if you didn't, you could not put them into practice. And one cannot let go of the raft too soon.

Great... Another thread deteriorating into a discussion of semantics, full of harsh tones of speech, and way off topic.

Maybe not.

[tiltbillings]

"You, O monks, who understand the Teaching's similitude to a raft, you should let go even (good) teachings, how much more false ones!

Do you believe that?

Also, as a matter of courtesy, when quoting a sutta, it should be given its proper citation, as MN22.

[Individual]

What do you mean by believe? We might share a single literal definition but that word can bear different connotations.

It is good for one to have confidence in the truth; in this sense, one believes in the 4NT. It is not good, however, to arbitrarily pick certain views because they are pleasing to the ego, or to become attached and to try to spread one certain view to the exclusion of all others.

[tiltbillings]

What do you mean by believe? We might share a single literal definition but that word can bear different connotations.

It is good for one to have confidence in the truth; in this sense, one believes in the 4NT. It is not good, however, to arbitrarily pick certain views because they are pleasing to the ego, or to become attached and to try to spread one certain view to the exclusion of all others.

No one is talking about trying to "spread one certain view" or becoming attached to any particular view, but interestingly, taking the FNT seriously, one likely adopts the FNT because one hurts or is dissatisfied with one's present state: "I don't think this, I want it to end."