the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Mahabrahma
Posts: 2232
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:02 am
Location: Krishnaloka :).
Contact:

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Mahabrahma »

Is it so hard to find someone who puts meat near their mouth and have them say: "I know I should be a vegetarian." ? Everyone seems to have to develop a philosophy over how they do things nowadays, even if it is the wrong way. The sooner you admit that you aren't living the way you want to deep down inside, or accept someone else's words about it, the sooner you can change that fact. I understand living in a diet of pure Ahimsa isn't possible for everyone all the time, especially in these troubling times of Kali-Yuga, even in plant based diets there is violence and even great difficulty for some to be fully free of animal products and harm to the environment, but if everyone honestly works together to cause less harm to others, primarily in the precept of not killing, the world will become a better place. That's what the Sangha is for. I appreciate everyone's effort in their Buddhism.

Metta.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
Inedible
Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 am
Location: Iowa City

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Inedible »

Any specialized diet costs more money than just eating the same things as everyone else around you. I don't make enough money to be vegetarian. The funny thing is that the only job I had which gave me the option of eating vegetarian food was in a research lab. My job required regularly killing mice which were no longer wanted. Compartmentalization is an interesting thing.
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

What criteria determine if kamma is bright or dark ?

Post by asahi »

Hi forum ,

What makes one kamma dark or bright ?
Is meat eating itself dark kamma even though without killing it own self , not seen , heard or knowing it purposely killing for us and suspecting killing for us ?
Nowadays all butchered livestock simply kills for every each of meat eater , therefore appears indirectly make us (meat eater) guilty as charge !
No bashing No gossiping
Ionbuddy
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:20 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ionbuddy »

I'm vegan for a number of reasons.

First, animal products are unnecessary to live.
Second, animal products cause a number of dose dependent chronic diseases.
Third, industrial demand for animal products cannot be met in a moral way.

Now theoretically it's possible to have moral eggs or milk, but unless those animals are under your care you really have no idea how they're being treated. Not to mention that chickens have been bred to lay far too many eggs, leading to prolapse or osteoporosis.

As for eating as vegan being more expensive... Poorer regions of the world tend to be more plant based. Places that eat the most meat tend to be the most wealthy. Meat is only cheap in developed countries because of their insane amounts of government subsidies.
I still have defilements.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22382
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ionbuddy wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:38 pm
First, animal products are unnecessary to live.
I disagree. A lot of medical biochemistry and medical microbiology tests rely upon animal testing and animal products. One example would be the enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA) which utilises antibodies harvested from animals, such as rabbits.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ionbuddy
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:20 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ionbuddy »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:55 pm
Ionbuddy wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:38 pm
First, animal products are unnecessary to live.
I disagree. A lot of medical biochemical and medical microbiological tests rely upon animal testing and animal products. One example would be the enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA) which utilises antibodies harvested from animals, such as rabbits.
Well, I was talking about consuming them, but alright. Even if they're being used, that doesn't mean they're strictly necessary. Besides that, antibodies are made of protein, so producing them from bacteria or yeast should be possible.
I still have defilements.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22382
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ionbuddy wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:06 pm

Well, I was talking about consuming them, but alright. Even if they're being used, that doesn't mean they're strictly necessary. Besides that, antibodies are made of protein, so producing them from bacteria or yeast should be possible.
There isn’t another way to harvest the antibodies required for these diverse range of tests and treatments. You can’t get antibodies from bacteria. Currently it is necessary to experiment upon and kill masses of animals to improve human health.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ionbuddy
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:20 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ionbuddy »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:26 pm
Ionbuddy wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:06 pm

Well, I was talking about consuming them, but alright. Even if they're being used, that doesn't mean they're strictly necessary. Besides that, antibodies are made of protein, so producing them from bacteria or yeast should be possible.
There isn’t another way to harvest the antibodies required for these diverse range of tests and treatments. You can’t get antibodies from bacteria. Currently it is necessary to experiment upon and kill masses of animals to improve human health.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3906537/
https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2015/0 ... evelopment

Besides, being able to make antibodies in a huge vat of bacteria or yeast or some other microbe is far more cost effective than growing an animal.

I'll repeat myself, just because it's being used doesn't make it strictly necessary. Even if it were absolutely impossible to make antibodies elsewhere that still wouldn't make it strictly necessary to human health and survival.
I still have defilements.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22382
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ionbuddy wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:40 pm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3906537/
https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2015/0 ... evelopment

Besides, being able to make antibodies in a huge vat of bacteria or yeast or some other microbe is far more cost effective than growing an animal.

I'll repeat myself, just because it's being used doesn't make it strictly necessary. Even if it were absolutely impossible to make antibodies elsewhere that still wouldn't make it strictly necessary to human health and survival.
The research is interesting and promising, but it’s not yet to the level where we can replace our use of mammalian cells: https://www.biopharminternational.com/v ... bial-hosts

So, for now, it is necessary to experiment upon and kill animals.
Even if it were absolutely impossible to make antibodies elsewhere that still wouldn't make it strictly necessary to human health and survival.
One of the best treatments for neuroblastoma is Dinutuximab, which uses monoclonal antibodies.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ionbuddy
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:20 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ionbuddy »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:05 pm
Ionbuddy wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:40 pm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3906537/
https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2015/0 ... evelopment

Besides, being able to make antibodies in a huge vat of bacteria or yeast or some other microbe is far more cost effective than growing an animal.

I'll repeat myself, just because it's being used doesn't make it strictly necessary. Even if it were absolutely impossible to make antibodies elsewhere that still wouldn't make it strictly necessary to human health and survival.
The research is interesting and promising, but it’s not yet to the level where we can replace our use of mammalian cells: https://www.biopharminternational.com/v ... bial-hosts

So, for now, it is necessary to experiment upon and kill animals.
I still disagree on it being necessary either way.
I still have defilements.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22382
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ionbuddy wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:08 pm

I still disagree on it being necessary either way.
On what basis?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ionbuddy
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:20 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ionbuddy »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:11 pm
Ionbuddy wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:08 pm

I still disagree on it being necessary either way.
On what basis?
On the basis that that could literally justify any immoral action no matter how heinous. You have me at there's no other way currently, but I'm not agreeing in that particular way.
I still have defilements.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22382
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ionbuddy wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:18 pm
On the basis that that could literally justify any immoral action no matter how heinous.
Yet that doesn’t happen.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ionbuddy
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:20 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ionbuddy »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:20 pm
Ionbuddy wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:18 pm
On the basis that that could literally justify any immoral action no matter how heinous.
Yet that doesn’t happen.
What are you talking about? Killing something that wants to live is pretty heinous in my book.
I still have defilements.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22382
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ionbuddy wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:21 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:20 pm
Ionbuddy wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:18 pm
On the basis that that could literally justify any immoral action no matter how heinous.
Yet that doesn’t happen.
What are you talking about? Killing something that wants to live is pretty heinous in my book.
I meant that the people who do the killing and experiments, and even society at large, on the whole, recognise it as a necessary but horrible act without then going on to “literally justify any immoral action no matter how heinous.”. In other words, the slope ain’t slippery.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Post Reply