Momentary discrete citta and conditionality

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Alex123
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Momentary discrete citta and conditionality

Post by Alex123 »

Hello all,

Something I was wondering for some time, and from what I understand, this difficult point is quite known.

If only one present moment exists at a time, then it means that past no longer exists.
How causes in the past (which no longer exist) affect the mind now, in the present?
How can something non-existent be a cause for the present effect?
If cause is different from its effect, then there needs to be at least two moments to exist. One moment is cause, another moment is its effect. But does that cause itself causeless or does it itself has a cause? This would require infinite regress. We may say that cause and effect is found in one citta or one moment, but this would be self-causality where the citta is its own cause and effect.

Even if we accept that sum total and mixture of ALL causes and accumulations are passed from one citta to the next one, it still has a problem.

How does one citta that ceases in order for another one to arise pass all the accumulations if it has to cease for the next citta to arise and take them?
For the question it doesn't matter if one citta arises instantly after ceased citta, or if it arises and is the first citta after lets say 500 Aeons.
Even if we posit bhavaṅga-citta, or momentary ālaya-vijñāna, the question is still the same. How can accumulations be passed (from citta to citta, or from bhavaṅga to bhavaṅga) if one moment with all accumulations has to cease for the next moment to arise? If all accumulations cease with that citta or bhavaṅga, from where would the next citta or bhavaṅga take them?


One of the things could be that this is artificial breaking citta into "mind moments" is an abstraction that can create the above paradoxes. Maybe we shouldn't picture process of cittas as one domino falling causing the other to fall with there being only one domino that exists at a time. So how can only one existing domino that causes itself to fall exist?

What solutions do you see other then saying "don't speculate, just practice"?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Momentary discrete citta and conditionality

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alex,
Alex123 wrote:One of the things could be that this is artificial breaking citta into "mind moments" is an abstraction that can create the above paradoxes. Maybe we shouldn't picture process of cittas as one domino falling causing the other to fall with there being only one domino that exists at a time. So how can only one existing domino that causes itself to fall exist?

What solutions do you see other then saying "don't speculate, just practice"?
If the "artificial breaking citta into "mind moments" is an abstraction that can create the above paradoxes" then give some thought as to the potential advantages or disadvantages of doing that.

The more abstractions (whether implicitly or explicitly applied) that serve to filter our experience, the more disconnected that experience is with what we're actually endeavouring to observe. Since the purpose (I assume) of the Abhidhammic framework is to get a better understanding of the qualitative nature of one's mind, consideration should be given as to the appropriate balance of classifications and abstractions. Personally I find the "sutta level" abstractions (e.g. six consciousness, five aggregates, six mental roots) beneficial and the "abhidhamma level" abstractions a bit too detailed... mileage may differ.

I hope that doesn't come across as a generic "don't speculate" or "just practice" response (either of which can be well meaning, but inappropriate at times)... I'm encouraging you to frame the situation in terms of advantage or disadvantage. With a nod and a wink to the Kalama Sutta...

-What degree of conceptualisation of citta is skillful or unskillful?
-What degree of conceptualisation of citta is blameworthy or blameless?
-What degree of conceptualisation of citta is criticized by the wise or praised by the wise?
-What degree of conceptualisation of citta when adopted & carried out, leads to welfare & to happiness, or not?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Momentary discrete citta and conditionality

Post by MattJ »

Alex,

I think you're hitting some important points about what happens when we atomize "moments". Your post sounds a lot like the arguments Nagarjuna makes.

If time is made up of atomic moments, then how can there be room for motion or changed? Motion in the past is moved. Motion in the future has not yet come about. Motion in the present moment alone is not motion at all. So how do things move?
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Alex123
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Re: Momentary discrete citta and conditionality

Post by Alex123 »

Hi Matt,

As I understand the Orthodox perspective is that motion doesn't exist. What happens is that parts appear and instanteneously cease at different locations thus giving only an illusion of motion.

My original question was even more serious. When one *moment with all its accumulations ceases, how does the arisen moment pick up those accumulations that have ceased?

moment can contain: citta, bhavaṅga, kamma, accumulations, etc
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ground
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Re: Momentary discrete citta and conditionality

Post by ground »

MattJ wrote:Your post sounds a lot like the arguments Nagarjuna makes.
Yes. It is his language game: Reifying terms/concepts through picking them intentionally and them applying logical reasoning to the reified terms/concepts. This approach will necessarily lead to absurd consequences.


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robertk
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Re: Momentary discrete citta and conditionality

Post by robertk »

does the seed have the oak tree inside it?

Why would accumulations being passed on by a problem to understand?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Momentary discrete citta and conditionality

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:does the seed have the oak tree inside it?

Why would accumulations being passed on by a problem to understand?
This last sentence is a bit unclear. Would please expand on it, making a little easier to understand your point?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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Alex123
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Re: Momentary discrete citta and conditionality

Post by Alex123 »

robertk wrote:does the seed have the oak tree inside it?

Why would accumulations being passed on by a problem to understand?

When on citta and/or bhavaṅga ceases, it means that all accumulations in it cease with it. How then does the newly arisen citta and/or bhavaṅga take those accumulations that have ceased with that previous momentary citta? In other words the question is about mechanism in between cittas and/or bhavaṅga.
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octathlon
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Re: Momentary discrete citta and conditionality

Post by octathlon »

The causes and conditions that caused the previous one to arise, cause the next one to arise though they are just slightly different now.
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Alex123
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Re: Momentary discrete citta and conditionality

Post by Alex123 »

octathlon wrote:The causes and conditions that caused the previous one to arise, cause the next one to arise though they are just slightly different now.

But how can presently arisen citta/bhavaṅga (containing causes and conditions) that has to cease for the next moment of citta to arise, condition the next moment of citta that will arise only when those causes and conditions within previous citta has ceased?

The question is how do accumulations, etc, are passed between the two moments of bhavaṅga or citta.
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octathlon
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Re: Momentary discrete citta and conditionality

Post by octathlon »

Alex123 wrote:But how can presently arisen citta/bhavaṅga (containing causes and conditions) that has to cease for the next moment of citta to arise, condition the next moment of citta that will arise only when those causes and conditions within previous citta has ceased?
Because the next moment of citta does not arise dependent solely on the previous citta. For example as explained in this article: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... #causality" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; This is a long article so I only post an excerpt:
Modes of Conditioning

Buddhism teaches that all phenomena, mental and physical, arise through conditions. In the Abhidhamma the modes of conditionality are analyzed into twenty-four types of relationship, each representing a tie between a condition and the phenomena it conditions. A brief account of these is as follows:

1. Root condition (hetu paccaya). The three unwholesome roots — greed, hate, and delusion — are root conditions for their associated unwholesome mental states and the material form they originate. Likewise, for the wholesome and indeterminate states — greedlessness, hatelessness, and undeludedness.

2. Object condition (aaramma.na paccaya). Any state that is an object for consciousness and its factors is an object condition. Consciousness is of six kinds by way of eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind; each can arise only with its appropriate object.

3. Predominance condition (adhipati paccaya). This assists in the manner of being foremost, thereby exercising a dominating rose over the other mental states. It may be a conascent mental state or it may be an object which is given special importance by the mind.

4. & 5. Proximity and Contiguity conditions (anantara paccaya, samanantara paccaya). In our analysis of a thought process we saw that seventeen thought moments follow each other in rapid succession. Each thought moment, with its factors, stands to the next thought moment and its factors in the relation of proximity condition and contiguity condition. These two modes of conditioning are different only in name but not in essence.
...
and so on listing all 24 types
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Alex123
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Re: Momentary discrete citta and conditionality

Post by Alex123 »

octathlon wrote:
Alex123 wrote:But how can presently arisen citta/bhavaṅga (containing causes and conditions) that has to cease for the next moment of citta to arise, condition the next moment of citta that will arise only when those causes and conditions within previous citta has ceased?
Because the next moment of citta does not arise dependent solely on the previous citta. For example as explained in this article:
That excerpt does not answer the question that I've asked. Whether current citta depends on one or many, proximate or distal cittas, this or any other condition, it does not alter my question of how accumulations are transmitted between two cittas.
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Re: Momentary discrete citta and conditionality

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Alex,
Alex123 wrote: That excerpt does not answer the question that I've asked. Whether current citta depends on one or many, proximate or distal cittas, this or any other condition, it does not alter my question of how accumulations are transmitted between two cittas.
I may have overlooked something, but I'm not sure if the Abhidhamma analysis ever claims to answer the question of "how does it work?", any more than Newton (or Einstein for that matter) explains "what makes gravity work".

:anjali:
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ground
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Re: Momentary discrete citta and conditionality

Post by ground »

I wonder whether there is a linguistic expression, i.e. term that negates the concept caused by the term "continuity" while at the same time not implying "continuity" by itself. "Moment" or "momentary" do not appear to be appropriate.


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Re: Momentary discrete citta and conditionality

Post by acinteyyo »

Alex123 wrote:Hello all,

Something I was wondering for some time, and from what I understand, this difficult point is quite known.

If only one present moment exists at a time, then it means that past no longer exists.
Hi Alex,

the problem could be that this concept of time may be simply wrong. What is "one moment at a time? Could be everything...

Let me try to assume something. I think, tell me if I'm wrong, that you and probably many others believe that there are many many momentary discrete cittas following each other in let's say a second, which constitute ones experience. One citta somehow discrete from the other and from here your problems may arise.

I want to introduce another way of seeing this momentary discrete citta thing... Let's assume one momentary citta does not last only for one unconceivable short amount of time but lasts for quite a long moment. How long exactly doesn't really matter. Important is that we get away from the view a citta is so unimaginable short that there are quadrillions or so in a minute... Next thing is, that one citta arises as one thing, changes while "being" and finally ceases as another thing, at least differently from the state when it arose. Now let's also assume that this one citta constitute a complete experience.

So back to my statement that the concept of time may be simply wrong. The connection between past and now may be that it happens within one citta. "Past" is just a name for "now" which has already changed. All conditions are impermanent, changing and there's no real somehow lasting "moment" which could be grasped.

When one citta finally ceases completely there's no connection to another citta which arises and there's no need for a connection. When one citta ceases with reminder, than that may be the connection between one and another citta.

One only needs a connection between cittas if one holds the view that there is someone who persists in being the same person and that the experience of this being is made of many many uncountable discrete cittas in order to remain reasonable with this very view. Otherwise a "being" cannot be brought in line with reason.

Hm... I may be wrong... just some food for thought...

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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