Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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SarathW
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Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?

Post by SarathW »

Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?
This is where the Bhave consciousness resides.

https://puredhamma.net/tables-and-summa ... rial-form/
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Spiny Norman
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Re: Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?

Post by Spiny Norman »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:47 am Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?
This is where the Bhave consciousness resides.

https://puredhamma.net/tables-and-summa ... rial-form/
So the heart is the seat of the mind in Abhidhamma?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
SarathW
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Re: Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?

Post by SarathW »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:09 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:47 am Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?
This is where the Bhave consciousness resides.

https://puredhamma.net/tables-and-summa ... rial-form/
So the heart is the seat of the mind in Abhidhamma?
Yes.
But it is not the heart what we think.
For instance, Brahma does not have a physical heart.
The embryo develop a physical heart lately but the embryo has consciousness from the conception.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?

Post by SarathW »

What is the possible place of Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) in human?
In my opinion, human consciousness arises immediately after conception.
With that assumption, when the human has the first cell there is consciousness in that cell.
So we can guess, As per Abhidhamma, the consciousness is in the Rupa of that first cell.
Then what happens when the cell division takes place.
The possible explanation is that we do not have all 28 Rupa in every cell.
On that basis, there should be a place in our body that is specially dedicated to Hadaya Vatthu.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?

Post by SarathW »

Another question is what is happening to this Hadaya Vatthu and the consciousness when a person dies.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Spiny Norman
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Re: Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?

Post by Spiny Norman »

In the Upanishads, the Atman is said to reside in the "cave of the heart". A possible connection?
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SarathW
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Re: Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?

Post by SarathW »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:17 am In the Upanishads, the Atman is said to reside in the "cave of the heart". A possible connection?
Interesting.
In Buddhism Hadaya Vatthu means not the physical heart.
However many Buddhist think it is the physical heart.
For instance, the newly formed embryo does not have a heart.
What will happen when there is a heart transplant then?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Spiny Norman
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Re: Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?

Post by Spiny Norman »

SarathW wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:25 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:17 am In the Upanishads, the Atman is said to reside in the "cave of the heart". A possible connection?
Interesting.
In Buddhism Hadaya Vatthu means not the physical heart.
However many Buddhist think it is the physical heart.
For instance, the newly formed embryo does not have a heart.
What will happen when there is a heart transplant then?
I don't think these are literal references to the heart, more like the centre of one's being.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
SarathW
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Re: Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?

Post by SarathW »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:28 am
SarathW wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:25 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:17 am In the Upanishads, the Atman is said to reside in the "cave of the heart". A possible connection?
Interesting.
In Buddhism Hadaya Vatthu means not the physical heart.
However many Buddhist think it is the physical heart.
For instance, the newly formed embryo does not have a heart.
What will happen when there is a heart transplant then?
I don't think these are literal references to the heart, more like the centre of one's being.
Yes.
It appears that Buddha said, "that depends on that very thing" or something like that.
I think this is something happening at Anusaya (Asava?) level
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?

Post by SarathW »

robertk wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:39 am viewtopic.php?f=19&t=38751
Good writing.
It is like asking where is the consciousness in a car.
But the problem is how do you explain rebirth using this analysis.
There is no person, just the phenomena go on.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?


I think the question is slightly off.

There is no literal mentioning of Hadaya Vatthu in Abhidhamma pitaka, imo.
  • In the Patth. we find repeatedly only the passage: "That material thing based on which mind-element and mind-consciousness element function" (yam rūpam nissāya manodhātu ca mano-viññāna-dhātu ca vattanti, tam rūpam).

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
SarathW
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Re: Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?

Post by SarathW »

In Arupaloka there is only the Nama.
There is no Rupa.
Then what is the heart in Arupa Loka beings?
What is the seat of consciousness?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?

Post by SarathW »

Ekacharn Guhasayan
Is this from Sutta or Abhidhamma?
Please give the reference.
This is in relation to heart base Bhavanga Citta.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?

Post by Gwi II »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:47 am Why Hadaya Vatthu (seat of the mind) considered Rupa (material form) in Abhidhamma?
This is where the Bhave consciousness resides.

https://puredhamma.net/tables-and-summa ... rial-form/
In the heart (organ) there is blood which influences the
"MIND ELEMENTS AND MIND CONSCIOUSNESS (this is
the citto)", in those who are full of lust the color is red,
those who are full of hatred are black, etc. I practice
32 Aspects meditation.
Gwi: "There are only-two Sakaṽādins:
Theraṽādå&Ṽibhajjaṽādå, the rest are
nonsakaṽādins!"
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