Do these six claims have direct quotes in the atthakatha?

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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waryoffolly
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Do these six claims have direct quotes in the atthakatha?

Post by waryoffolly »

In this thread: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=40610 I asked if the points below could be found in the abhidhamma pitaka/tipitaka itself. So far it looks like no, with the exception of the kathavatthu, which I’m suspicious is later anyways and have made a thread asking about this here: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=40616

Now let’s move on to the later strata of commentary and ask the same question. Can the six points below be found in the atthakatha itself? By this I do not mean the Visuddhimagga, sub-commentaries, or canonical proto-abhidhamma work, but instead the (previously sinhalese) atthakatha that Buddhagosa translated into pali and (presumably) edited.
Common Abhidhamma Argument #1 - Mentality and materiality are paramattha dhammas (i.e. ultimate dhammas)

Common Abhidhamma Argument #2 - Dhammas exist

Common Abhidhamma Argument #3 - Dhammas exist, independent of observation

Common Abhidhamma Argument #4 - Dhammas exist and then do not-exist with great rapidity, faster than a flash of lightning

Common Abhidhamma Argument #5 - Concepts are not dhammas (phenomena)

Common Abhidhamma Argument #6 - It is important to understand the different classifications for dhammas and their relations, as outlined in the Abhidhamma
Direct quotes (in Pali or English) would be ideal.
waryoffolly
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Re: Do these six claims have direct quotes in the atthakatha?

Post by waryoffolly »

Are these quotes describing momentariness theory?
CY. Therein, when raising the foot, the material and mental phenomena which then occur do not reach the stage of bringing the foot forward. Similarly, those which occur when bringing the foot forward do not reach the stage of shifting it away; those which occur when shifting the foot away do not reach the stage of dropping it; those which occur when dropping the foot do not reach the stage of placing it on the ground; and those which occur when placing the foot on the ground do not reach the stage of pressing it against the ground.
Having come into being section by section, phase by phase, stage by stage, these phenomena break up right on the spot, popping like sesame seeds thrown onto a hot pan. Therein, who is the one that goes forward? To whom does the going forward pertain? For ultimately there is only the going of elements, the standing of elements, the sitting of elements, the lying down of elements. In each portion, together with the material form:

One state of consciousness arises,
Another state of consciousness ceases;
The process thus goes on
In uninterrupted flow like a stream.

Thus clear comprehension of non-delusion means not becoming deluded about (such actions as) going forward, etc. This concludes (the explanation of) the meaning of the phrase: “in going forward and returning, the bhikkhu acts with clear comprehension.”
Looks to me like the idea of ultimately existent phenomenon may also be present in this quote, although it’s not 100% clear to me. From DN-2 atthakatha Bhikkhu Bodhi translation here: https://www.bps.lk/olib/bp/bp212s_Bodhi ... seship.pdf

In the same commentary:
CY. Those states of consciousness (beginning with adverting and) ending with determining which arise in the eye door, those break up together with their associated phenomena right on the spot (whether they arose). They do not see one another. Thus they are evanescent and temporary. Therein, when all the people living in a single house have died, it is not proper for the sole survivor, being subject to die that very moment, to delight in singing and dancing; in the same way, when at a single sense door the states of consciousness such as adverting, etc., along with their associated phenomena have died right on the spot (where they arose), it is not proper for the survivor—that is, impulsion—being subject to die that very moment, to delight by way of lust, hatred, and delusion.
That does sound like a useful way to develop nibbida regardless.

Maybe someone else sees a reason to not interpret this as momentariness?
sphairos
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Re: Do these six claims have direct quotes in the atthakatha?

Post by sphairos »

"Common Abhidhamma Argument #2 - Dhammas exist"
regarding this point check Kathāvatthu, Kv 116ff., esp. pp. 125ff.

There is the discussion about existence of the dhammas in time. The Theravāda position is that only the present dhammas exist.

Regarding the rest: check Noa Ronkin's book "Early Buddhist Metaphysics" (2005). All of those points are carefully and expertly elucidated there.
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
waryoffolly
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Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:30 pm

Re: Do these six claims have direct quotes in the atthakatha?

Post by waryoffolly »

sphairos wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:05 pm
"Common Abhidhamma Argument #2 - Dhammas exist"
regarding this point check Kathāvatthu, Kv 116ff., esp. pp. 125ff.

There is the discussion about existence of the dhammas in time. The Theravāda position is that only the present dhammas exist.

Regarding the rest: check Noa Ronkin's book "Early Buddhist Metaphysics" (2005). All of those points are carefully and expertly elucidated there.
This book looks like it would include discussion of all of these points. Thanks for the recommendation.
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