Ākāsa-Dhātu

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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robertk
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Re: Ākāsa-Dhātu

Post by robertk »

In short, the ideas of Spk, VBB & VSj appear to have no basis in observable reality or Sanditthika Dhamma
Please note that in this forum we treat the ancient Commentaries such as Spk, as reliable. If you wish to disparage them the ideal place is early Buddhism. General Theravada has also become a popular place to disagree with classical Theravada.
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robertk
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Re: Ākāsa-Dhātu

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DooDoot wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:35 am
mikenz66 wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:24 am I don't see much difference between the translations of Bhikkhu Bodhi and Bhikkhu Sujato
[111] Spk: It is old kamma (purāṇam idaṃ kammaṃ): This body is not actually old kamma, but because it is produced by old kamma it is spoken of in terms of its condition. It should be seen as generated (abhisaṅkhata), in that it is made by conditions; as fashioned by volition (abhisañcetayita), in that it is based on volition, rooted in volition; and as something to be felt (vedaniya), in that it is a basis for what is to be felt [Spkpṭ: because it is a basis and object of feeling].
The sutta does not ever say the eye, ears, etc, are kamma vipaka. The sutta appears to literally say "old kamma is the eyes, ears, etc, mentally conditioned & willed in the past; that is felt in the present". :smile: :heart:
Kamma gives results as vipaka. Kamma also conditions materiality such as eye-base etc.
"And what, bhikkhus, is old kamma?
The eye is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by
volition, as something to be felt.
The ear is old kamma...
The mind is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by
volition, as something to be felt.
This is called old kamma.
And what, bhikkhus, is new kamma?
Whatever action one does now by body, speech or mind.
This is called new kamma."
SN35:146
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mikenz66
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Re: Ākāsa-Dhātu

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robertk wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:00 am Kamma gives results as vipaka. Kamma also conditions materiality ...
Thanks Robert. It would be a very strange world if there were separate "mental" and "material" objects that had no influence on each other.

:heart:
Mike
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DooDoot
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Re: Ākāsa-Dhātu

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mikenz66 wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:18 pm
robertk wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:00 am Kamma gives results as vipaka. Kamma also conditions materiality ...
Thanks Robert. It would be a very strange world if there were separate "mental" and "material" objects that had no influence on each other.
Kamma does not produce materiality. Kamma only conditions materiality, such sexual thoughts causing physical sex organs to became physical & mentally aroused.
mikenz66 wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:18 pm It would be a very strange world if there were separate "mental" and "material" objects that had no influence on each other.
The gurus you posted did not appear to say the above. The word "produce" appears to not mean "influence". :heart:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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robertk
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Re: Ākāsa-Dhātu

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DooDoot wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:36 pm
Kamma does not produce materiality. Kamma only conditions materiality, such sexual thoughts causing physical sex organs to became physical & mentally aroused.
There are a number of elements produced by kamma (kammasamutthana, kammaja-rupa), e.g Eyebase, earbase, etc.

Other conditions for types of rupa are citta, utu and ahara.
What you describe above is actually rupa conditioned by citta.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ākāsa-Dhātu

Post by Ceisiwr »

robertk wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:10 pm
Bhikkhu Bodhi: On the status of the space element: I tried to do some research on
this, but could not come up with a conclusive answer. You may be correct.
I had always assumed that the defining mark of a paramattha-dhamma
according to the Theravada Abhidhamma system is sabhAvato vijjamAna
("existing through intrinsic nature"), but your challenge makes me think
this may not be correct. It would not be enough, though, merely to bring
forth rational arguments, as Nina does; one would have to quote texts that
establish that space is paramattha without being sabhAvato vijjamAna. Such
distinctions are unlikely to be made even in the Abhidhamma commentaries
(though I might be wrong). One would have to go down to texts of a still
more technical nature, like the Abhidhamma tikas (sub-commentaries), and
it is difficult to find anyone who knows these well. If you have contact
with Lance Cousins (former president of Pali Text Society) or Rupert
Gethin (current president), they might be able to provide you with the
answer. Here I don't have access to these texts, and the headache makes
delving into such abstruse but interesting questions difficult.< end BB�s
comments>
That exchange was interesting. I'm not sure there is much support for a dhamma to be paramattha without sabhāva. Perhaps there is in the sub-commentaries, but as Ven. Bodhi has said no one has studied them in great detail. It's still perplexing to me. At the moment it seems there are only 2 options available. Either the ākāsa-dhātu is a sabhāva-dhamma, or concepts do arise and cease. I've been toying with the idea that the sutta is referring to the arising and ceasing of the conceptualisation process itself rather than the concept, but this might be pushing the sutta beyond it's meaning.
"Besides the two categories of paramattha (the real) and paññatti (concept), a third category does not exist. One who is skilful in these two categories does not tremble in the face of other teachings."

Abhidhammāvatāra by Ven. Buddhadatta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ākāsa-Dhātu

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robertk wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:21 am ...
The Vibhaṅga-mūlaṭīkā relates it to the space kasiṇa:

177.Iminā yasmiṃ ākāse…pe… taṃ kathitanti idaṃ kasiṇugghāṭimākāsassa akathitataṃ, ajaṭākāsassa ca kathitataṃ dassetuṃ vuttaṃ.

This space is whatever is … that is related to the space kasiṇa learning sign...


I'm having some trouble with the rest of the pāli.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Besides the two categories of paramattha (the real) and paññatti (concept), a third category does not exist. One who is skilful in these two categories does not tremble in the face of other teachings."

Abhidhammāvatāra by Ven. Buddhadatta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ākāsa-Dhātu

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5. In the Suttas the first eight kasióas are the same as those given here, and they are the only ones mentioned in the Dhammasangani (§160–203) and Patisambhidá (PatisI 6). The Suttas give space and consciousness as ninth and tenth respectively (M II 14–15; D III 268; Netti 89, etc.). But these last two appear to coincide with the first two immaterial states, that is, boundless space and boundless consciousness. The light kasina given here as ninth does not appear in the Suttas. It is perhaps a development from the “perception of light” (áloka-saññá) (A II 45). The limited-space kasióa given here as tenth has perhaps been made “limited’ in order to differentiate it from the first immaterial state. The commentary on the consciousness kasióa (M-a III 261) says nothing on this aspect. As to space, Vism-mhþ (p. 373) says: “The attainment of the immaterial states is not produced by means of the space kasióa, and with the words ‘ending with the white kasióa’ (XXI.2) the light kasióa is included in the white kasióa.” For description of space (ákása) see Dhs-a 325, Netti 29. Also Vism-mhþ (p. 393) defines space thus: “Wherever there is no obstruction, that is called space.” Again the Majjhima Nikáya Þìká (commenting on MN 106) remarks: “[Sense desires] are not called empty (ritta) in the sense that space, which is entirely devoid of individual essence, is called empty.”
Ven. Ñāṇamoli's notes to the Visuddhimagga
"Besides the two categories of paramattha (the real) and paññatti (concept), a third category does not exist. One who is skilful in these two categories does not tremble in the face of other teachings."

Abhidhammāvatāra by Ven. Buddhadatta
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