zan wrote: ↑Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:05 pm
SarathW wrote: ↑Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:27 am
Body (matter) only, no mind.
Very interesting indeed!
What is the difference between an Arhant in Nirodha Samapatti (cessation of perception and feeling) and a non-percipient being?
Thanks and I don't know, good question.
The question was for someone else, but I reply to it here. I don't myself know what the difference in the experience
of abiding as an non-percipient being (asaññasatta) compared to an Arahant or Anāgāmi (Non-returner) in Nirodha Samapatti would be -- personally, I have hardly any meditative attainment myself, nor do I know the information from any literature (except that it is said of Nirodha Samapatti: 'The peace it gives is reckoned as Nibbána here and now' in the very end of this post, so that might make the experience of it higher that the experience of an asaññasatta? I don't know.) -- but I can tell you the qualities of each. I did some research to add to previous knowledge of this, to come up with this (possibly it took around 4 hours to research and write this, I am guessing):
non-percipient beings (asaññasatta). See: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... /loka.html
The attainment is said to be the outcome of a mode of practice called the “development of dispassion towards perception” (saññāvirāga-bhāvanā). The Pali texts deal only very cursorily with this, presumably because it’s deemed to be a wrong practice that leads only to rebirth as an impercipient deva – a rather useless achievement unless you like the idea of spending five hundred aeons as a de facto stone.
In the Sammohavinodanī Buddhaghosa merely states:
“Of the non-percipient beings” means “of the beings lacking perception.” Certain persons, having gone forth in dispensations outside [of the Buddha’s teaching], perceive a defect in consciousness (citta), [thinking]: ‘being greedy, hateful or deluded depends on consciousness; but a state free of consciousness would be beautiful – it would be Nibbāna in the present life.’ They then generate dispassion towards perception (saññāvirāga) and developing the fifth attainment (samāpatti) in conformity with this [view] they are reborn there [i.e., in the realm of the impercipient beings]. At the moment of their rebirth only the aggregate of matter (rūpakkhandha) is produced. If they are reborn standing, they stand only; if sitting, they sit only; if lying down, they lie only. They then remain for five hundred kalpas just like painted statues.
After that their bodies disappear and a sense-sphere perception arises leading those [former] devas to realize that their [non-percipient] body has now passed away.
Ancient meditators (in the line of Alarakalama, Uddakaramaputta) knew the problem lies with "Sanna". World is created by Sanna it's anihilated by Sanna. So they were looking for a refuge from the pilage of Sanna. Maybe they were looking something beyond Sanna perhaps... So they were examining Sanna and how to find an escape from it.
As you climb the ladder of Jhana you give up considerable amount of Sanna that contribute to the vividness of the world. At neither perception nor non perception there exist only very subtle form of Sanna ( subtlest form of Sanna about Sanna bound by the impermenece , that's how I understand it).
Forth Jhana is the last rupa Jhana which only has one pointedness and equaminity. Similar to the last formless Jhana in someways. Some meditators who arrived at this state saw not something beyond Sanna but equaminity, but it's still attached to Sanna. Still bound by it. Born of it. Worldly being would consider equaminity to be a higher achievement but these folk saw that equaminity is still a Sanna. They were at the end of Rupa Jhana yet still haven't found refuge.
In this state they meditated on "Dhi Cittam". This phrase is suppose to say " disgusting cittam, shamefull cittam". And that repulsion towards Sanna or citta caused the state called Asanna satta in forth Jhana realm.
Or it could be they meditated on Dhi cittam from the day one but could not go beyond last Rupa Jhana because they didn't focus on relinquishing form. They were merely concerned on giving up mind.
In case you want sutta support look for the phrase "Dhi Cittam". I remember reading it somewhere but couldn't recall where.
Arhant in Nirodha Samapatti ('cessation of perception and feeling', you called it. Actually it is 'attainment of extinction').
This Nirodha Samapatti is also called saññā-vedayita-nirodha ('extinction of feeling and perception', or ' cessation of ideation and feeling', or 'cessation of perception and feeling'):
32. But the detail is this. When a bhikkhu who desires to attain cessation has
finished all that has to do with his meal and has washed his hands and feet
well, he sits down on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place.
his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, he
attains the first jhána, and on emerging he sees the formations in it with insight
as impermanent, painful, not-self.
33. This insight is threefold as insight that discerns formations, insight for the
attainment of fruition, and insight for the attainment of cessation. Herein, insight
that discerns formations, whether sluggish or keen, is the proximate cause only for
a path. Insight for the attainment of fruition, which is only valid when keen, is
similar to that for the development of a path. Insight for the attainment of cessation
is only valid when it is not over-sluggish and not over-keen. Therefore he sees those
formations with insight that is not over-sluggish and not over-keen.
34. After that, he attains the second jhána, and on emerging he sees formations
with insight in like manner. After that, he attains the third jhána … (etc.) … After
that, he attains the base consisting of boundless consciousness, and on emerging
he sees the formations in it in like manner. Likewise he attains the base consisting
of nothingness. On emerging from that he does the fourfold preparatory task,
that is to say, about (a) non-damage to others’ property, (b) the Community’s
waiting, (c) the Master’s summons, and (d) the limit of the duration.
35. (a) Herein, non-damage to others’ property refers to what the bhikkhu has
about him that is not his personal property: a robe and bowl, or a bed and chair,
or a living room, or any other kind of requisite kept by him but the property of
various others. It should be resolved14 that such property will not be damaged,
will not be destroyed by fire, water, wind, thieves, rats, and so on. Here is the form
of the resolve: “During these seven days let this and this not be burnt by fire; let
it not be swept off by water; let it not be spoilt by wind; let it not be stolen by
thieves; let it not be devoured by rats, and so on.” When he has resolved in this
way, they are not in danger during the seven days.
36. If he does not resolve in this way, they may be destroyed by fire, etc., as in the
case of the Elder Mahá Nága.
The elder, it seems, went for alms into the village
where his mother, a lay follower, lived. She gave him rice gruel and seated him in
the sitting hall. The elder sat down and attained cessation. While he was sitting
there the hall caught fire. The other bhikkhus each picked up their seats and
fled. The villagers gathered together, and seeing the elder, they said, “What a
lazy monk! What a lazy monk!” The fire burned the grass thatch, the bamboos,
and timbers, and it encircled the elder. People brought water and put it out. They
removed the ashes, did repairs,15 scattered flowers, and then stood respectfully
waiting. The elder emerged at the time he had determined. Seeing them, he said,
“I am discovered!,” and he rose up into the air and went to Piyaògu Island. This
is “non-damage to others’ property.”
37. There is no special resolving to be done for what is his own personal
property such as the inner and outer robes or the seat he is sitting on. He protects
all that by means of the attainment itself, like those of the venerable Sañjìva.
this is said: “There was success by intervention of concentration in the venerable
Sañjìva. There was success by intervention of concentration in the venerable
Sáriputta” (Paþis I 212—see XII.30).
38. (b) The Community’s waiting is the Community’s expecting. The meaning
is: till this bhikkhu comes there is no carrying out of acts of the Community. And
here it is not the actual Community’s waiting that is the preparatory task, but the
adverting to the waiting. So it should be adverted to in this way:
“While I am
sitting for seven days in the attainment of cessation, if the Community wants to
enact a resolution, etc., I shall emerge before any bhikkhu comes to summon
me.”  One who attains it after doing this emerges at exactly that time.
39. But if he does not do so, then perhaps the Community assembles, and not
seeing him, it is asked, “Where is the bhikkhu so and so?” They reply, “He has
attained cessation.” The Community dispatches a bhikkhu, telling him, “Go
and summon him in the name of the Community.” Then as soon as the bhikkhu
stands within his hearing and merely says, “The Community is waiting for you,
friend,” he emerges. Such is the importance of the Community’s order. So he
should attain in such-wise that, by adverting to it beforehand, he emerges by
40. (c) The Master’s summons: here too it is the adverting to the Master’s summons
that is the preparatory task. So that also should be adverted to in this way:
“While I am sitting for seven days in the attainment of cessation, if the Master,
after examining a case, makes known a course of training, or teaches the Dhamma,
the origin of which discourse is some need that has arisen,16 I shall emerge
before anyone comes to summon me.” For when he has seated himself after
doing so, he emerges at exactly that time.
41. But if he does not do so, when the Community assembles, the Master, not
seeing him, asks, “Where is the bhikkhu so and so?” They reply, “He has attained
cessation.” Then he dispatches a bhikkhu, telling him, “Go and summon him in
my name.” As soon as the bhikkhu stands within his hearing and merely says,
“The Master calls the venerable one,” he emerges. Such is the importance of the
Master’s summons. So he should attain in such wise that, by adverting to it
beforehand, he emerges himself.
42. (d) The limit of duration is the limit of life’s duration. For this bhikkhu
should be very careful to determine what the limit of his life’s duration is. He
should attain only after adverting in this way: “Will my own vital formations go
on occurring for seven days or will they not?” For if he attains it without adverting
when the vital formations are due to cease within seven days, then since the
attainment of cessation cannot ward off his death because there is no dying
during cessation,17 he consequently emerges from the attainment meanwhile. So
he should attain only after adverting to that. For it is said that while it may be
permissible to omit adverting to others, this must be adverted to.
43. Now, when he has thus attained the base consisting of nothingness and
emerged and done this preparatory task, he then attains the base consisting of
neither perception nor non-perception. Then after one or two turns of
consciousness have passed, he becomes without consciousness, he achieves
cessation. But why do consciousnesses not go on occurring in him after the two
consciousnesses? Because the effort is directed to cessation. For this bhikkhu’s
mounting through the eight attainments, coupling together the states of serenity
and insight,  is directed to successive cessation, not to attaining the base
consisting of neither perception nor non-perception. So it is because the effort is
directed to cessation that no more than the two consciousnesses occur.
44. But if a bhikkhu emerges from the base consisting of nothingness without
having done this preparatory task and then attains the base consisting of neither
perception nor non-perception, he is unable then to become without
consciousness: he returns to the base consisting of nothingness and settles
45. And here the simile of the man and the road not previously travelled may
be told. A man who had not previously travelled a certain road came to a ravine
cut by water, or after crossing a deep morass he came to a rock heated by a fierce
sun. Then without arranging his inner and outer garments, he descended into
the ravine but came up again for fear of wetting his belongings and remained
on the bank, or he walked up on to the rock but on burning his feet he returned
to the near side and waited there.
46. Herein, just as the man, as soon as he had descended into the ravine, or
walked up on to the hot rock, turned back and remained on the near side because
he had not seen to the arrangement of his inner and outer garments, so too as
soon as the meditator has attained the base consisting of neither perception nor
non-perception, he turns back and remains in the base consisting of nothingness
because the preparatory task has not been done.
47. Just as when a man who has travelled that road before comes to that place,
he puts his inner garment on securely, and taking the other in his hand, crosses
over the ravine, or so acts as to tread only lightly on the hot rock and accordingly
gets to the other side, so too, when the bhikkhu does the preparatory task and
then attains the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception, then
he achieves cessation, which is the other side, by becoming without
48. (vii) How is it made to last? It lasts as long as the time predetermined for its
duration, unless interrupted meanwhile by the exhaustion of the life span, by
the waiting of the Community, or by the Master’s summons.
49. (viii) How does the emergence from it come about? The emergence comes about
in two ways thus: by means of the fruition of non-return in the case of the non-
returner, or by means of the fruition of Arahantship in the case of the Arahant.
50. (ix) Towards what does the mind of one who has emerged tend? It tends towards
Nibbána. For this is said: “When a bhikkhu has emerged from the attainment of
the cessation of perception and feeling, friend Visákha, his consciousness
inclines to seclusion, leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion” (M I 302). 
51. (x) What is the difference between one who has attained and one who is dead?
This is also given in a sutta, according as it is said: “When a bhikkhu is dead,
friend, has completed his term, his bodily formations have ceased and are quite
still, his verbal formations have ceased and are quite still, his mental formations
have ceased and are quite still, his life is exhausted, his heat has subsided, and
his faculties are broken up. When a bhikkhu has entered upon the cessation of
perception and feeling, his bodily formations have ceased and are quite still, his
verbal formations have ceased and are quite still, his mental formations have
ceased and are quite still, his life is unexhausted, his heat has not subsided, his
faculties are quite whole” (M I 296).
52. (xi) As to the question is the attainment of cessation formed or unformed, etc.? It is
not classifiable as formed or unformed, mundane or supramundane. Why?
Because it has no individual essence. But since it comes to be attained by one
who attains it, it is therefore permissible to say that it is produced, not
This too is an attainment which
A Noble One may cultivate;
The peace it gives is reckoned as
Nibbána here and now.
A wise man by developing
The noble understanding can
With it himself endow;
So this ability is called
A boon of understanding, too,
The noble paths allow.
The Path of Purification (Visuddhimagga), Chapter XXIII, 16-52: The Attainment of Cessation --
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf