momentariness and experiential understanding

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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robertk
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momentariness and experiential understanding

Post by robertk »

One question raised today on the zoom meeting was how Abhidhammic theory, which posits a universe that is radically momentary, can account for actual experience where things seem to last for seconds, minutes, days or years ..

The first step before direct understanding has to be clear theoretical understanding, the foundation for anything deeper.

In the section on the development of vipassana in Vism.xx (the tika)
13. First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger (Vism-mhþ 790)

So what obscures seeing this rapid arising and falling?

The Visuddhimagga(XV3)
“The characteristic of impermanence does not become apparent because when rise and fall are not given attention it is concealed by continuity”..However when continuity is disrupted by discerning rise and fall the characteristic of impermanence becomes apparent in its true nature”
Because each element is immediately replaced by a new, and often very similar element ( by conditions), this fact is obscured.
Not only that, but moha (avijja ignorance) and tanha - which we we all have plenty of, actively distract from the truth. It is why the path must be narrow and difficult to see.

We can’t stop seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, feeling, knowing, thinking; these dhammas are not ours and they arise by conditions. . The thing is that the more we look into this, and the more obvious dukkha thus becomes, I think the happier we become.
Possibly the more we see that right effort is a conditioned phenomena, anatta, the more vigor there is – because we are not wasting energy trying to have what can’t yet be had. Then there is detachment from the idea of a self who is doing anything – there is, the theory suggests, the gradual elimination of attasanna (self perception), the paticcasamupadda is being dismantled.
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Re: momentariness and experiential understanding

Post by sunnat »

Bhanga nana is the direct experience of total dissolution of the bodymind phenomenon. It's an experience that can be had without having any theoretical understanding. It can be 'awakened' by the simple practice of anapana. Sitting still without any intentional movement while focusing awareness on the breath for a number of hours leads to the total dissolution of the bodymind phenomenon. One becomes aware that the bodymind phenomenon is nothing but like foam or a mass of bubbles or flux of energy and that clinging 'solidifies' 'it'. It helps to have an understanding of what happens (to alarge extent so one doesn't take it too seriously but treat it as just another phenomenon on the path) but the understanding doesn't make it happen. The practice does.
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Re: momentariness and experiential understanding

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Robert,

Firstly, thank you for hosting the session and the forbearance with questions that are obviously quite technical and nuanced!

If I may, I assume you understand the difference between "digital recordings" and "analogue recordings".... where digital recordings are a series of consecutive zeroes and ones, which are so rapid in their "rise and fall" that the rise and fall is not discerned and the sound or image appears "concealed by continuity" (to quote from above). The analogue recording is a series of recorded waveforms, which do not contain such a rapid "rise and fall" but instead mimic the frequencies of the original sound or image. There is also an appearance of "continuity".

My questions are:

- Does the Abhidhamma teach that experience is "digital" or "analogue"?
- Are dhammas explained and related in terms of their causes and conditions as "digital" or "analogue" things in the Abhidhamma?
- Momentariness is obviously compatible with a digital view, but can (and should) it be reconciled with an analogue view?
- Are the vipassana-nanas "digital" or "analogue"?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: momentariness and experiential understanding

Post by sunnat »

A useful analogy is consider the pot of water boiling (or perhaps bubble flow in an agitated bottle of carbonated fluid). The bubbles appear randomly throughout the water with no bubble waiting in turn for any other. Many different bubbles are 'arising' all the time throughout the body of water. If one considers the body of water as a matrix then at any coordinate a bubble is arising or it is not but while it is arising, or not, there is also at any other coordinate an arising, or not, but the time of that arising or not arising is not dependent on events at other matrix coordinates in a way that necessitates considering it an analogue or digital process. Kamma is key. Is the question 'is the arising of kamma fruit digital or analogue' applicable.
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Re: momentariness and experiential understanding

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings sunnat,

So is the timing of those "bubbles" arising equally spaced and metered out in time, as it would be for digital "moments", if a moment has a pre-defined time interval (or "frames per second", if you will)?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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robertk
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Re: momentariness and experiential understanding

Post by robertk »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 11:27 am Greetings Robert,

Firstly, thank you for hosting the session and the forbearance with questions that are obviously quite technical and nuanced!

If I may, I assume you understand the difference between "digital recordings" and "analogue recordings".... where digital recordings are a series of consecutive zeroes and ones, which are so rapid in their "rise and fall" that the rise and fall is not discerned and the sound or image appears "concealed by continuity" (to quote from above). The analogue recording is a series of recorded waveforms, which do not contain such a rapid "rise and fall" but instead mimic the frequencies of the original sound or image. There is also an appearance of "continuity".

My questions are:

- Does the Abhidhamma teach that experience is "digital" or "analogue"?
- Are dhammas explained and related in terms of their causes and conditions as "digital" or "analogue" things in the Abhidhamma?
- Momentariness is obviously compatible with a digital view, but can (and should) it be reconciled with an analogue view?
- Are the vipassana-nanas "digital" or "analogue"?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Thanks Paul
yes the analogy of the digital is clear enough for comparing with the momentariness of the Abhidhamma.

But there are 24 paccaya , conditions, explained in the Patthana in the Abhidhamma, and some of those condition moments far in the future.
Take asynchronous kamma-condition, nanakkhanika kamma-paccaya: it can be done now but give a result much later in this life, or in future lives. Maybe that fits somehow with the analogue analogy?

Vipassana nanas are often misunderstood at this time - and people are wont to equate some strange experience with one of the stages.
However they are exactly like now - processes of mind and matter, nama and rupa: the only difference is that the veil of ignorance which hides the actuality is briefly absent. There is the discerning of nama and rupa - which is different from the usual running among concepts. As I understand it.
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Re: momentariness and experiential understanding

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Robert,
robertk wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:04 pmAs I understand it.
Appreciated. Thank you.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: momentariness and experiential understanding

Post by Sam Vara »

robertk wrote: ↑Sun May 17, 2020 6:11 pm
One question raised today on the zoom meeting was how Abhidhammic theory, which posits a universe that is radically momentary, can account for actual experience where things seem to last for seconds, minutes, days or years ..
I'd like to echo Retro's thanks to you, Robert, for taking the pains to host the meetings, and for your patience with those who are beginners in this (i.e. me!) The great benefit of these Zoom meetings for me is that, having established this type of contact, questions such as "Can you explain X to me?" thereafter cease to be some sort of textual trap ("I know you can't explain X, but in attempting to do so you will contradict something you've said elsewhere, and then I'll win!") and become respectful requests for information about "X".

In that spirit, I'll ask why the question raised above is best phrased in that format; rather than conversely trying to explain why the world of actual experience is better conceived as being radically momentary. Deploying Ockham's razor here - looking for the most parsimonious explanation in terms of assumptions - why should we accept that the apparent persistence of the world is not due to actual persistence, rather than being due to something which is predicated upon the world being (a) different from our normal understanding, and (b) different is such a way that it actually explains that normal understanding? Note that I am not arguing for anything like the dreaded "naive realism" ( :spy: ) here, or necessarily saying anything about an objective world independent of experience.
The first step before direct understanding has to be clear theoretical understanding, the foundation for anything deeper
.
I'm happy to accept this, but would like it to come with more of a psychological recommendation attached. Why this theoretical understanding, rather than another? How is this different from, say, the argument made by some Christians that we need to understand and act in accordance with the ideas outlined in their theology, and that having done so, the full spiritual import of the words will later make itself clear to us?

Somewhere (DW? ATI?) I read an interesting if rather cynical account of a meditation group having anicca explained to them. It was like being told that, actually, the world is mainly blue. At first, people were resistant. "Look! things are red, yellow, completely transparent!" Gradually, they convinced themselves that, yes, everything did in fact, if you looked closely enough, have a sort of faint bluish tinge to it. And the more you looked for it...

I can readily understand the necessity for vibhanga, analysis, the taking apart of what is complex and taken-for-granted; and how this obviously relates to our desires. If carried out, it would certainly seem to work when applied to materiality or objects as we know them. But I suppose I have recently been more conditioned by the idea of analysis being in terms of factors of our experience; how our attention and defilements and mental apparatus in general are critical to the process, and how unpicking them is the key to dispassion and release. That's why I am also appreciative of Retro's account which kicks off the "Vipassana Techniques Revisited" thread
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=37138

But, as ever, the problem is about choosing the right tree to bark up...

A quick question on this bit, if I may:
Because each element is immediately replaced by a new, and often very similar element ( by conditions), this fact is obscured
.
When we have the type of similarity of successive moments which gives rise to the perception of persistence, what governs the similarity? Is there some kind of law which means that one moment of a particular type must give rise to the next, of a very similar type? Going back to the example of the concrete in Retro's street, does one moment of hardness have to follow another very similar moment in order for us to perceive the continued qualities of the concrete?
Not only that, but moha (avijja ignorance) and tanha - which we we all have plenty of, actively distract from the truth. It is why the path must be narrow and difficult to see.
Up to a point, I guess. I must confess that some of these discussions occasionally seem to me like blind men calling out over long distances that they have found the path through the brambles, and that it's harder to discern than all the other guys think. But could it be that the path might be easier to see than that, and that the difficulties come when we try to see and describe with absolute clarity?
We can’t stop seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, feeling, knowing, thinking; these dhammas are not ours and they arise by conditions
My recent conditioning regarding the Dhamma (including Retro's piece) prompts me to ask what role volition and attention play in this. They are not mine, for sure, but their contents - as opposed to the brute fact of their totality - do seem to be somewhat amenable to my bidding. Hence my continuing interest in samatha as a tree possibly worth barking up...
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Re: momentariness and experiential understanding

Post by SDC »

Yo, I gots to get in on these zooms :group:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: momentariness and experiential understanding

Post by mikenz66 »

robertk wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:04 pm yes the analogy of the digital is clear enough for comparing with the momentariness of the Abhidhamma.

But there are 24 paccaya , conditions, explained in the Patthana in the Abhidhamma, and some of those condition moments far in the future.
Take asynchronous kamma-condition, nanakkhanika kamma-paccaya: it can be done now but give a result much later in this life, or in future lives. Maybe that fits somehow with the analogue analogy?
Yes, the trouble with the digital analogy is that it sounds very static, it we think in terms of the signals encoded on a CD (for us old-timers) or in a sound file. And you bring up the important point that it seems that the model does not just have one moment conditioning the next. I.e. it's not like a row of dominos...

Image

Maybe this is a better analogy?

Image

:heart:
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Re: momentariness and experiential understanding

Post by Srilankaputra »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:20 pm I must confess that some of these discussions occasionally seem to me like blind men calling out over long distances that they have found the path through the brambles, and that it's harder to discern than all the other guys think. But could it be that the path might be easier to see than that, and that the difficulties come when we try to see and describe with absolute clarity?
Hi,

I feel your frustration. I have only just dipped my toes in the Abhidhamma and the whole canon seems vaster than a great lake. I can't possibly drink it all. I just require what is needed to quench my thirst. My personal belief is anyone who proceeds with honesty and humility on the the path will come across what is needful for one to know one way or another. Good friends are the key I think.

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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Re: momentariness and experiential understanding

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 5:45 pm Yo, I gots to get in on these zooms :group:
I've only managed to attend one so far but it was quite enjoyable.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: momentariness and experiential understanding

Post by robertk »

Robert: The first step before direct understanding has to be clear theoretical understanding, the foundation for anything deeper
Sam Vara
I'm happy to accept this, but would like it to come with more of a psychological recommendation attached. Why this theoretical understanding, rather than another? How is this different from, say, the argument made by some Christians that we need to understand and act in accordance with the ideas outlined in their theology, and that having done so, the full spiritual import of the words will later make itself clear to us?

Somewhere (DW? ATI?) I read an interesting if rather cynical account of a meditation group having anicca explained to them. It was like being told that, actually, the world is mainly blue. At first, people were resistant. "Look! things are red, yellow, completely transparent!" Gradually, they convinced themselves that, yes, everything did in fact, if you looked closely enough, have a sort of faint bluish tinge to it. And the more you looked for it...

But, as ever, the problem is about choosing the right tree to bark up..
Dear Sam Vara,
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
This Dhamma is not easily realized
by those overcome
with aversion & passion.

What is abstruse, subtle,
deep,
hard to see,
going against the flow —
those delighting in passion,
cloaked in the mass of darkness,
won't see.
That pretty much describes me (delighting in passion, cloaked in the mass of darkness), so I have no issue with seeing the path as being rather narrow and only clear to those with sufficient parami.

On the possibility of barking up the wrong tree: a perennial problem for all spiritual adventurers, I think. I seem to remember one regular long term poster here who announced he was joining a Christian group one day - after years of arguing passionately for his pet areas in buddhism. Can you or me be sure we won't run off to join the Hari Krishna next year?

Venerable Sunnakhata was the Buddha's attendant before Ananda. He listened to Dhamma and attained
Jhana, even to the degree of having special powers of hearing.
But he eventually left the Buddha, spoke badly of the Dhamma, and followed ascetics who used to live a life of severe ascetism, copying dogs(dog-duty ascetics). Why, when he had all this going for him? The commentary says that this man had lived many consecutive past lives as an ascetic and had these tendencies. Even the Buddha's teaching couldn't overcome them. And so we see how dependent past factors are in conditioning behaviour. Of course Sunnakhata made choices, he had conventional volitional control over what he did but what he couldn't see was that ditthi (wrong view)and lobha were underlying all his choices.

My fairly surface level reasons for confidence in the teaching of the Elders are 1: it all makes perfect sense to how the world appears to me;2. it seems to all come from an incredible wisdom, much more sublime and detailed than all the other paths I have heard of.
Are there deeper reasons - like accumulations from past lives that make one lean towards say Abhidhamma rather than Tibetan Tulkus- yes that fits in with the teaching and makes sense to me too, although I have no way of really knowing that(but it does explain a lot).
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Re: momentariness and experiential understanding

Post by Spiny Norman »

Probably heretical in terms of the Abhidhamma, but my experience of attention is like a torch beam which moves around, "illuminating" different sense-objects at different times. And as with the light scatter from a torch beam, there is generally a peripheral awareness outside the current focus.

I guess I prefer an analogue model to a digital one, partly because I think the "digital processing" is done by the brain before we actually get to experience anything. So information from the sense-bases is automatically processed and combined. Attention then moves around the processed data, consciously or unconsciously.

I think an important aspect of Buddhist practice is that it involves consciously choosing where to place attention, rather than just letting attention "do its own thing".
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Re: momentariness and experiential understanding

Post by robertk »

Sam vara: A quick question on this bit, if I may:
Robert: Because each element is immediately replaced by a new, and often very similar element ( by conditions), this fact is obscured
.
When we have the type of similarity of successive moments which gives rise to the perception of persistence, what governs the similarity? Is there some kind of law which means that one moment of a particular type must give rise to the next, of a very similar type? Going back to the example of the concrete in Retro's street, does one moment of hardness have to follow another very similar moment in order for us to perceive the continued qualities of the concrete?
We need to delve more to explain this.
According to Abhidhammic theory what we call a block of concrete is actually a mass of trillions of kalapas (a group of matter), each with tiny spaces between them. And each of these kalapas arises and falls away instantly - but is replaced by new kalapas due to temperature (utu-samutthana) primarily in the kalapa that has just fallen away.
All matter outside the body is only composed of eight types of rupa yet the intensities of these eight can vary enormously and so we see a huge type of differing matter - water , snow, wood, plastic, flower, and thank god, coffee etc. So there is a kind of law that as you suggest "one moment of a particular type must give rise to the next, of a very similar type?" But of course this is very dependent and all sorts of events can happen so that deterioration in the conventional sense occurs..

Things like concrete or flower are said to be the shadow of what is really there (only evanescent rupas).
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