Language, Reality and dhammas

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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Ceisiwr
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Language, Reality and dhammas

Post by Ceisiwr »

Greetings everyone,

I’m still acquainting myself with the Abhidhamma so forgive me if I have misrepresented some or all aspects of it.

As I understand things so far there is conventional reality and ultimate reality. Conventional reality is comprised of concepts and language, for example “person” or “house” but these things have no reality. The only things that can be said to exist are dhammas, such as earth or vedanā. My question then is if the everyday world doesn’t exist but is mere convention, designation and words then do the words themselves exist or not? Are words dhammas? If they are dhammas, what do they refer to? If they aren’t dhammas then how can we say anything about dhammas, since to say anything about dhammas involves words but words aren’t real?
“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood.”


Dhotakamāṇavapucchā
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cappuccino
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Re: Language, Reality and dhammas

Post by cappuccino »

this teaching is actually asking you to be more grounded


grounded means to recognize the reality of reality
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Language, Reality and dhammas

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 6:06 pm this teaching is actually asking you to be more grounded


grounded means to recognize the reality of reality
Thanks but that doesn’t address my question :)
“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood.”


Dhotakamāṇavapucchā
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cappuccino
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Re: Language, Reality and dhammas

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thanks but that doesn’t address my question :)
rather it addresses what you were saying
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Language, Reality and dhammas

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 6:14 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thanks but that doesn’t address my question :)
rather it addresses what you were saying
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“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood.”


Dhotakamāṇavapucchā
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cappuccino
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Re: Language, Reality and dhammas

Post by cappuccino »

:buddha1:
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DooDoot
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Re: Language, Reality and dhammas

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 6:00 pmAre words dhammas?
Probably better to ask the question: "Are dhammas words?" For example, if I take a cricket bat and, like a Yakka, strike a blow to your skull with that cricket bat, that blow that cracks your skull causing your skull to bleed & bruise is not mere "words". The dhamma of earth element has solidity, as the Buddha taught. The words are not real but the dhammas are real.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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robertk
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Re: Language, Reality and dhammas

Post by robertk »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 6:00 pm Greetings everyone,

I’m still acquainting myself with the Abhidhamma so forgive me if I have misrepresented some or all aspects of it.

As I understand things so far there is conventional reality and ultimate reality. Conventional reality is comprised of concepts and language, for example “person” or “house” but these things have no reality. The only things that can be said to exist are dhammas, such as earth or vedanā. My question then is if the everyday world doesn’t exist but is mere convention, designation and words then do the words themselves exist or not? Are words dhammas? If they are dhammas, what do they refer to? If they aren’t dhammas then how can we say anything about dhammas, since to say anything about dhammas involves words but words aren’t real?
The speaking is conditioned by citta. Citta is real. The sound is real. The words and ideas are concept.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Language, Reality and dhammas

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 9:55 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 6:00 pmAre words dhammas?
Probably better to ask the question: "Are dhammas words?" For example, if I take a cricket bat and, like a Yakka, strike a blow to your skull with that cricket bat, that blow that cracks your skull causing your skull to bleed & bruise is not mere "words". The dhamma of earth element has solidity, as the Buddha taught. The words are not real but the dhammas are real.
still the incident of breaking skull with cricket bat comes under conventional reality perception
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Language, Reality and dhammas

Post by confusedlayman »

robertk wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 5:33 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 6:00 pm Greetings everyone,

I’m still acquainting myself with the Abhidhamma so forgive me if I have misrepresented some or all aspects of it.

As I understand things so far there is conventional reality and ultimate reality. Conventional reality is comprised of concepts and language, for example “person” or “house” but these things have no reality. The only things that can be said to exist are dhammas, such as earth or vedanā. My question then is if the everyday world doesn’t exist but is mere convention, designation and words then do the words themselves exist or not? Are words dhammas? If they are dhammas, what do they refer to? If they aren’t dhammas then how can we say anything about dhammas, since to say anything about dhammas involves words but words aren’t real?
The speaking is conditioned by citta. Citta is real. The sound is real. The words and ideas are concept.
citta, sound are real in conventional way as it appears to us due to the sence field. but ultimately sound dont exist as such.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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confusedlayman
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Re: Language, Reality and dhammas

Post by confusedlayman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 6:00 pm Greetings everyone,

I’m still acquainting myself with the Abhidhamma so forgive me if I have misrepresented some or all aspects of it.

As I understand things so far there is conventional reality and ultimate reality. Conventional reality is comprised of concepts and language, for example “person” or “house” but these things have no reality. The only things that can be said to exist are dhammas, such as earth or vedanā. My question then is if the everyday world doesn’t exist but is mere convention, designation and words then do the words themselves exist or not? Are words dhammas? If they are dhammas, what do they refer to? If they aren’t dhammas then how can we say anything about dhammas, since to say anything about dhammas involves words but words aren’t real?
Earth means solidity in abdhidhamma. If a solidity can turn to liquid or broken in to two parts, how can it exist as such? solidity (earth) exist as long as u perceive it to be some solid, but if it turns to liquid then u cognize it as liquid,not solid.

Hence to conventional way of seeing, earth exist and u are craving to earth but when u see ultimately earth dont exist as such, then craving to mere appearence of conventional earth will be cut off but still u can perceive conventionally and use it without attachment...

Same with feelings, it is real and u need to deal with it using conventional reality but knowling ultimately what feel is will make it easy to give up the attachment to feeling even when u r in conventional reality.... so knowing ultimate reality will make u live in conventional reality without stress as u know what experience u have is just mere appearence due to power of karma but u wont grasp it as u know there is nothing to really grasp and no one to really grasp in ultimate reality, hence grasping dont occur and one personally attain nibbana from the effect of that grasping otherwise.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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robertk
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Re: Language, Reality and dhammas

Post by robertk »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:50 am
robertk wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 5:33 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 6:00 pm Greetings everyone,

I’m still acquainting myself with the Abhidhamma so forgive me if I have misrepresented some or all aspects of it.

As I understand things so far there is conventional reality and ultimate reality. Conventional reality is comprised of concepts and language, for example “person” or “house” but these things have no reality. The only things that can be said to exist are dhammas, such as earth or vedanā. My question then is if the everyday world doesn’t exist but is mere convention, designation and words then do the words themselves exist or not? Are words dhammas? If they are dhammas, what do they refer to? If they aren’t dhammas then how can we say anything about dhammas, since to say anything about dhammas involves words but words aren’t real?
The speaking is conditioned by citta. Citta is real. The sound is real. The words and ideas are concept.
citta, sound are real in conventional way as it appears to us due to the sence field. but ultimately sound dont exist as such.
I see..and this is said where in the texts.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Language, Reality and dhammas

Post by confusedlayman »

robertk wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 11:10 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:50 am
robertk wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 5:33 am

The speaking is conditioned by citta. Citta is real. The sound is real. The words and ideas are concept.
citta, sound are real in conventional way as it appears to us due to the sence field. but ultimately sound dont exist as such.
I see..and this is said where in the texts.
Validate yourself... and it might be given in ultimate reality talking works of any buddhist masters
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: Language, Reality and dhammas

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:49 am still the incident of breaking skull with cricket bat comes under conventional reality perception
nonsense. perception (sanna) does not break skull. Rupa (form) breaks skull. The Buddha said:
And why, bhikkhus, do you call it form? ‘It is deformed,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called form. Deformed by what? Deformed by cold, deformed by heat, deformed by hunger, deformed by thirst, deformed by contact with flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, and serpents. ‘It is deformed,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called form.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/bodhi
If my blow to your skill makes you unconsciousness, there is no perception but the blow has the power to make you unconsciousness or non-perceptional.

:alien:
confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 11:31 amValidate yourself... and it might be given in ultimate reality talking works of any buddhist masters
It is best to not tell others to do what you yourself do not do. It is worse to lie about others. The Buddha said:
158. One should first establish oneself in what is proper; then only should one instruct others. Thus the wise man will not be reproached.

159. One should do what one teaches others to do; if one would train others, one should be well controlled oneself. Difficult, indeed, is self-control.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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robertk
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Re: Language, Reality and dhammas

Post by robertk »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 11:31 am
robertk wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 11:10 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 10:50 am

citta, sound are real in conventional way as it appears to us due to the sence field. but ultimately sound dont exist as such.
I see..and this is said where in the texts.
Validate yourself... and it might be given in ultimate reality talking works of any buddhist masters
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Let me link to this book.
http://www.abhidhamma.org/development/w ... anaket.pdf
There are objects which are real and there are objects which are not real. Objects
can be experienced through six doors and they can be classified as sixfold:
Visible object (ruparammana) can be known through the eye-door.
Sound (saddarammana) can be known through the ear-door.
Odour can be known through the nose-door.
Flavour can be known through the tongue-door.
Tangible object can be known through the body-door. ,,,...

As to sound, this is the reality that appears through ears. It is the object of vithicittas which arise depending on the earsense, the sota-pasada-rupa. It appears through
the mind-door after there have been bhavanga-cittas in between. There have to be
bhavanga-cittas after each process of cittas. Thus, there must always be bhavangacittas in between a sense-door process and a mind-door process. When we hear a
sound and know the meaning of what is heard there are different processes. When one
knows the meaning of a word there are mind-door processes of cittas which think of
that word. These cittas are different from cittas of the ear-door process which
experience the sound which has not fallen away yet.
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