Concepts

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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Ceisiwr
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Concepts

Post by Ceisiwr »

At which point in the cognitive process do concepts arise?
“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood."


Mettagūmāṇavapucchā
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one_awakening
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Re: Concepts

Post by one_awakening »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:11 pm At which point in the cognitive process do concepts arise?
object-conciousness-contact-feeling-perception-concepts
“You only lose what you cling to”
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Concepts

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:11 pm At which point in the cognitive process do concepts arise?
MN 18: Madhupindika Sutta — The Ball of Honey

A man looking to pick a fight asks the Buddha to explain his doctrine. The Buddha's answer mystifies not only the man, but also a number of monks. Ven. Maha Kaccana finally provides an explanation, and in the course of doing so explains what is needed to bring the psychological sources of conflict to an end.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
Srilankaputra
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Re: Concepts

Post by Srilankaputra »

As I understand. Concepts(paññatti) are only associated with mind door cittas. Strictly speaking paññatti can't be said to arise, atleast not in the sense referred to Paramattha Dhammas.
Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.

"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Paññatti is like shapes made by the sand. It is 'ñana' or more specifically 'Pariññeyya ñana' that diagnoses Paramattha behind the apparent, as it were.

Tañhi, bhikkhu, musā yaṃ mosadhammaṃ, taṃ saccaṃ yaṃ amosadhammaṃ nibbānaṃ.

Tasmā evaṃ samannāgato bhikkhu iminā 
paramena saccādhiṭṭhānena samannāgato hoti.

Etañhi, bhikkhu, paramaṃ ariyasaccaṃ yadidaṃ

amosadhammaṃ nibbānaṃ
Srilankaputra
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Re: Concepts

Post by Srilankaputra »

Just want to add here, paññatti can can only ever be an arammana for citta and associated Cetasikas. Preceding Paramattha Dhammas don't condition paññatti associated with proceeding cittas. Paññatti is classed as asankhata dhamma.

Tañhi, bhikkhu, musā yaṃ mosadhammaṃ, taṃ saccaṃ yaṃ amosadhammaṃ nibbānaṃ.

Tasmā evaṃ samannāgato bhikkhu iminā 
paramena saccādhiṭṭhānena samannāgato hoti.

Etañhi, bhikkhu, paramaṃ ariyasaccaṃ yadidaṃ

amosadhammaṃ nibbānaṃ
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rightviewftw
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Re: Concepts

Post by rightviewftw »

If you are interested in the term 'concepts', i would recommend reading a primer on general semantics such as 'tyranny of words', it's based on the 'science and sanity'.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Concepts

Post by confusedlayman »

perception (or seeing something in greatdetail where knowledge of something is obtained)
dont think
SteRo
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Re: Concepts

Post by SteRo »

Ācariya Anuruddha & B. Bodhi wrote:§32. Summary
Vacīghosānusārena sotaviññāṇavīthiyā
Pavattānantaruppannā manodvārassa gocarā
Atthā yassānusārena viññāyanti tato paraṁ
Sāyaṁ paññatti viññeyyā lokasanketanimmitā ti.

By following the sound of speech through the process of ear-consciousness, and
then by means of the concept conceived by (the process in the) mind-door that
subsequently arises, meanings are understood. These concepts should be understood as
fashioned by worldly conventions.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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confusedlayman
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Re: Concepts

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:53 am
Ācariya Anuruddha wrote:§32. Summary
Vacīghosānusārena sotaviññāṇavīthiyā
Pavattānantaruppannā manodvārassa gocarā
Atthā yassānusārena viññāyanti tato paraṁ
Sāyaṁ paññatti viññeyyā lokasanketanimmitā ti.

By following the sound of speech through the process of ear-consciousness, and
then by means of the concept conceived by (the process in the) mind-door that
subsequently arises, meanings are understood. These concepts should be understood as
fashioned by worldly conventions.
when we see something outside, idea comes in mind... then there is conciousness taking mind image as object and based on mind image feeling arise
dont think
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Concepts

Post by Ceisiwr »

one_awakening wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:31 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:11 pm At which point in the cognitive process do concepts arise?
object-conciousness-contact-feeling-perception-concepts
My problem with this is that sañña involves labelling and concepts. To quote the Vism.
130. But though classed in the same way as consciousness, nevertheless, as to characteristic, etc., it all has just the characteristic of perceiving. Its function is to make a sign as a condition for perceiving again that “this is the same,” as carpenters, etc., do in the case of timber, and so on. It is manifested as the action of interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended, like the blind who “see” an elephant (Ud 68–69). Its proximate cause is an objective field in whatever way that appears, like the perception that arises in fawns that see scarecrows as men
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf

CHAPTER XIV The Aggregates

Sañña then involves perception but also recognising signs and labelling. In order to label something you need a concept. To quote from the Araṇavibhaṅga Sutta:
“Idha, bhikkhave, tadevekaccesu janapadesu ‘pātī’ti sañjānanti, ‘pattan’ti sañjānanti, ‘vittan’ti
sañjānanti, ‘sarāvan’ti sañjānanti ‘dhāropan’ti sañjānanti, ‘poṇan’ti sañjānanti, ‘pisīlavan’ti
sañjānanti. Iti yathā yathā naṃ tesu tesu janapadesu sañjānanti tathā tathā thāmasā parāmāsā abhinivissa voharati: ‘idameva saccaṃ, moghamaññan’ti. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, jana¬pada¬niruttiyā ca abhiniveso hoti samaññāya ca atisāro.

Here, bhikkhus, in different localities they call the same thing a “dish” (pāti) or they call it a “bowl” (patta) or they call it a “vessel” (vittha) or they call it a “saucer (sarava) or they call it a “pan” (dhāropa) or they call it a “pot” (poṇa) or they call it a “mug” (hana) or they call it a “basin” (pisīla). So whatever they call it in such and such a locality, he speaks accordingly, firmly adhering to and insisting on that, “Only this is true, anything else is wrong.” This is how there comes to be insistence on local language and overriding of normal usage.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn139/en/sujato

The pali word used here “sañjānanti” is the verb of saññā and is usually translated as “perceives” or “perceiving”. However, here we clearly do not have a case of perception of or perceiving simpliciter. Instead sañjānanti is being used in naming or designating. In other words, in using concepts in relation to X form. Based on the Vism. and this sutta concepts then seem to appear with saññā. If concepts are cognised in conjunction with saññā then how can we know the ultimate realities, since saññā always arises with citta? It would then follow that all we are ever aware of are the concepts of dhammas rather than directly knowing the ultimate realities themselves. The only way around it is to say that the ultimate realities are known either at citta, or that its possible to differentiate between the concept that is cognised at the mind door along with with saññā. From my own experience from meditating on the mahābhūtas it is possible to experience the dhamma directly, before concept. The concept of "hardness" seems to come to be with the arising of saññā. I suppose this could be inline with the honey ball sutta, where "what one perceives one thinks about". As far as I understand it, I believe Ledi Sayadaw said the same here:
Ledi Sayadaw explains that it is in these consequent processes that distinct recognition of the object occurs; such recognition does not occur in a bare five-door process itself. An eye-door process, for example, is followed first by a conformational mind-door process (tadanuvattik± manodv±rav²thi), which reproduces in the mind door the object just perceived in the sense-door process. Then comes a process grasping the object as whole (samud±yag±hik±); then a process recognizing the colour (vaººasallakkhaº±); then a process grasping the entity (vatthug±hik±); then a process recognizing the entity (vatthu- sallakkhaº±); then a process grasping the name (n±mag±hik±); then a process recognizing the name (n±masallakkhaº±).
https://www.saraniya.com/books/meditati ... dhamma.pdf

So concepts are always cognised along with the dhamma perceived. Directly experiencing the dhammas then is not an act devoid of concepts, but in differentiating the concept that is cognised along with the dhamma.

Thoughts?
“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood."


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Srilankaputra
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Re: Concepts

Post by Srilankaputra »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:36 am So concepts are always cognised along with the dhamma perceived. Directly experiencing the dhammas then is not an act devoid of concepts, but in differentiating the concept that is cognised along with the dhamma.
As I understand, for us yes. strictly speaking no concepts are associated with any of the five sense door processes. But sañña occurs in all cittas. Since we don't have the power of mental development to slow down, as it were the stream of cittas, we have to go the wisdom route.

Tañhi, bhikkhu, musā yaṃ mosadhammaṃ, taṃ saccaṃ yaṃ amosadhammaṃ nibbānaṃ.

Tasmā evaṃ samannāgato bhikkhu iminā 
paramena saccādhiṭṭhānena samannāgato hoti.

Etañhi, bhikkhu, paramaṃ ariyasaccaṃ yadidaṃ

amosadhammaṃ nibbānaṃ
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Bundokji
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Re: Concepts

Post by Bundokji »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:11 pm At which point in the cognitive process do concepts arise?
Could you define the cognitive process? Do you take DO as a model to explain the cognitive process?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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