Cause and Condition - Fact or Fiction?

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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Ceisiwr
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Cause and Condition - Fact or Fiction?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Greetings,

Hetu (cause) and condition (paccaya) are not ultimate realities. That being so would it be safe to say that the conditionality of life is a construct of the mind, in an almost Kantian manner?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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DooDoot
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Re: Cause and Condition - Fact or Fiction?

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:09 am Hetu (cause) and condition (paccaya) are not ultimate realities.
Are u sure Abhidhamma actually says or infers the above? :shrug:
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:09 amThat being so would it be safe to say that the conditionality of life is a construct of the mind, in an almost Kantian manner?
Not according to the suttas, which is explicitly clear on the matter:
SN 12.20 wrote:Whether Realized Ones arise or not, this law of nature persists, this regularity of natural principles, this invariance of natural principles, specific conditionality.

Uppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.20/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Cause and Condition - Fact or Fiction?

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot
Are u sure Abhidhamma actually says or infers the above?
I fully admit I could be wrong and I will look further into it, but my understanding at the moment is that cause and condition have no sabhāva. Having no sabhāva they are therefore not ultimate realities but are concepts that arise due to the relation between ultimate dhammas.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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DooDoot
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Re: Cause and Condition - Fact or Fiction?

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:36 am my understanding at the moment is that cause and condition have no sabhāva. Having no sabhāva they are therefore not ultimate realities but are concepts that arise due to the relation between ultimate dhammas.
My guess is they are simply excluded from the discussion of sabhava & ultimate realities in the Abhidhamma.

For example, MN 115 is the most extensive sutta on the subject of the elements (dhatu). However, that paccaya & hetu are excluded from the lists of elements (dhatus) in MN 115 may not necessarily mean they are not elements (dhatus) because SN 12.20 says:
Uppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ, ṭhitāva dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā.

Whether Realized Ones arise or not, this law of nature persists, this regularity of natural principles, this invariance of natural principles, specific conditionality. (Sujato)

: whether there is an arising of Tathagatas or no arising of Tathagatas, that element still persists, the stableness of the Dhamma, the fixed course of the Dhamma, specific conditionality. (Bodhi)

Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, this this/that conditionality. (Thanissaro)

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.20/en/sujato
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.20/en/bodhi
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Srilankaputra
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Re: Cause and Condition - Fact or Fiction?

Post by Srilankaputra »

I am not an expert, but I tend to look at it this way. For example, understanding the paramatthaness of viññana is a function of pañña as well as understanding its conditioned nature(in terms of whatever scheme). Abhidhamma is fine fine distinctions made by pañña.

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
Srilankaputra
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Re: Cause and Condition - Fact or Fiction?

Post by Srilankaputra »

Dutiyañāṇavatthu sutta

“Mendicants, I will teach seventy-seven grounds for knowledge.
_Sattasattari vo, bhikkhave, ñāṇavatthūni desessāmi.

Listen and pay close attention, I will speak.”
_Taṃ suṇātha, sādhukaṃ manasi karotha, bhāsissāmī”ti.

“Yes, sir,” they replied.
_Evaṃ, bhante”ti kho te bhikkhū bhagavato paccassosuṃ.

The Buddha said this:
_Bhagavā etadavoca:

“And what are the seventy-seven grounds for knowledge?
_Katamāni, bhikkhave, sattasattari ñāṇavatthūni?

The knowledge that rebirth is a condition for old age and death,
_Jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇanti ñāṇaṃ;

and the knowledge that when rebirth doesn’t exist, there is no old age and death.
_asati jātiyā natthi jarāmaraṇanti ñāṇaṃ;

Also regarding the past: the knowledge that rebirth is a condition for old age and death, and the knowledge that when rebirth doesn’t exist, there is no old age and death.
_atītampi addhānaṃ jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇanti ñāṇaṃ, asati jātiyā natthi jarāmaraṇanti ñāṇaṃ;

Also regarding the future: the knowledge that rebirth is a condition for old age and death, and the knowledge that when rebirth doesn’t exist, there is no old age and death.
_anāgatampi addhānaṃ jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇanti ñāṇaṃ, asati jātiyā natthi jarāmaraṇanti ñāṇaṃ;

And also their knowledge that even this knowledge of the stability of natural principles is liable to end, vanish, fade away, and cease.
_yampissa taṃ dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṃ tampi khayadhammaṃ vayadhammaṃ virāgadhammaṃ nirodhadhammanti ñāṇaṃ.

The knowledge that continued existence is a condition for rebirth …
_Bhavapaccayā jātīti ñāṇaṃ … pe …

upādānapaccayā bhavoti ñāṇaṃ …
taṇhāpaccayā upādānanti ñāṇaṃ …
vedanāpaccayā taṇhāti ñāṇaṃ …
phassapaccayā vedanāti ñāṇaṃ …
saḷāyatanapaccayā phassoti ñāṇaṃ …
nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatananti ñāṇaṃ …
viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpanti ñāṇaṃ …
saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇanti ñāṇaṃ...
avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārāti ñāṇaṃ...
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.34/en/sujato

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
santa100
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Re: Cause and Condition - Fact or Fiction?

Post by santa100 »

Ceisiwr wrote:Hetu (cause) and condition (paccaya) are not ultimate realities.
There're different meanings for differnt context. In the Abhidhamma context, Hetu denotes the wholesome/unwholesome roots/mula, ie. root-condition/hetu-paccaya, which is part of the Sankhata/Conditioned, which in turns is under Paramattha/Ultimate-Reality. A few examples: LobhaCitta/Greed-rooted, DosaCitta/Hatred-rooted, MohaCitta/Delusion-rooted, ( ... ---> AkusalaCitta ---> ASobhanaCittani ---> KamaVacaraCitta ---> LokiyaCitta ---> Citta ---> Nama ---> Sankhata ---> Paramattha )
janeandr
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Re: Cause and Condition - Fact or Fiction?

Post by janeandr »

Ceisiwr wrote:Hetu (cause) and condition (paccaya) are not ultimate realities.
There're different meanings for differnt context. In the Abhidhamma context, Hetu denotes the wholesome/unwholesome roots/mula, ie. root-condition/hetu-paccaya, which is part of the Sankhata/Conditioned, which in turns is under Paramattha/Ultimate-Reality. A few examples: LobhaCitta/Greed-rooted, DosaCitta/Hatred-rooted, MohaCitta/Delusion-rooted, ( ... ---> AkusalaCitta ---> ASobhanaCittani ---> KamaVacaraCitta ---> LokiyaCitta ---> Citta ---> Nama ---> Sankhata ---> Paramattha )
never thought it could have such deep meaning
thank you my friend
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