Can mudita (as part of 7sb and brahma vihara) and pīti (rapture as a jhāna factor) include crying tears of joy?

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frank k
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Can mudita (as part of 7sb and brahma vihara) and pīti (rapture as a jhāna factor) include crying tears of joy?

Post by frank k »

(cross posting manually from general forum)
Can mudita (as part of 7sb and brahma vihara) and pīti (rapture as a jhāna factor) include crying tears of joy?
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=39449

I don't recall vism. or Ab Vibhanga saying anything about this.
Surely Abhidhamma would have something to say about this question?
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Re: Can mudita (as part of 7sb and brahma vihara) and pīti (rapture as a jhāna factor) include crying tears of joy?

Post by asahi »

frank k wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:15 pm (cross posting manually from general forum)
Can mudita (as part of 7sb and brahma vihara) and pīti (rapture as a jhāna factor) include crying tears of joy?
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=39449

I don't recall vism. or Ab Vibhanga saying anything about this.
Surely Abhidhamma would have something to say about this question?
Sorry , didnt aware that mudita is part of 7 factor of enlightenment .
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Re: Can mudita (as part of 7sb and brahma vihara) and pīti (rapture as a jhāna factor) include crying tears of joy?

Post by SarathW »

asahi wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:26 am
frank k wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:15 pm (cross posting manually from general forum)
Can mudita (as part of 7sb and brahma vihara) and pīti (rapture as a jhāna factor) include crying tears of joy?
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=39449

I don't recall vism. or Ab Vibhanga saying anything about this.
Surely Abhidhamma would have something to say about this question?
Sorry , didnt aware that mudita is part of 7 factor of enlightenment .
You are right.
Mudita is not a factor of seven factors of enlightement.
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Re: Can mudita (as part of 7sb and brahma vihara) and pīti (rapture as a jhāna factor) include crying tears of joy?

Post by SteRo »

frank k wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:15 pm (cross posting manually from general forum)
Can mudita (as part of 7sb and brahma vihara) and pīti (rapture as a jhāna factor) include crying tears of joy?
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=39449

I don't recall vism. or Ab Vibhanga saying anything about this.
Surely Abhidhamma would have something to say about this question?
1.
Abhidhammattha Sangaha wrote:§29. Seven Factors of Enlightenment
Satta bojjhangā: (1) satisambojjhango; (2) dhammavicayasambojjhango;
(3) viriyasambojjhango; (4) pītisambojjhango; (5)
passaddhisambojjhango; (6) samādhisambojjhango; (7) upekkhāsambojjhango.

There are seven factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga): (1) mindfulness (satisambojjhanga);
(2) investigation of the truth (dhamma-vicaya); (3) energy / effort
(viriya); (4) zest / bliss / joy / rapture (pīti); (5) tranquility (passaddhi); (6) concentration
(samādhi); and (7) equanimity (upekkhā).
2.
There is mention of a rootless resultant "smile producing citta" (in buddhas and arahants) but no mention of a "tear producing citta" so "crying tears of joy" might be the effect of secondary cognitive processes which may be either wholesome or unwholesome.
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Re: Can mudita (as part of 7sb and brahma vihara) and pīti (rapture as a jhāna factor) include crying tears of joy?

Post by pitithefool »

Ha, I saw your post on reddit!

Meditating on mudita can produce piti, but also keep in mind so can meditating on the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha and any particularly inspiring theme. Mudita in particular can produce tears of joy.

My real interest is why are you asking this question> Are you trying to figure out if brahmavihara practice can be considered jhana?

If so, you'll never reach an end to people who agree or disagree. I've heard compelling arguments for both but I do lean on the side of considering brahmavihara practice jhana. If you read jhana to mean something like it does in the VSM, it's likely you'll consider it to be a practice only in line with access concentration. Either way though, it's can and will lead to ceto-vimutti and should be practiced. It's often included in suttas directly before the description of jhana as a means of purifying the mind.

The important thing to consider with jhana is that it is both a method and a result of abandoning sensuality and unwholesome states of mind. Practicing formal brahmaviharas is very much conducive to jhana but so are things like moderation in eating, dedication to wakefulness, practicing right speech and practicing 5 or 8 precepts. Jhana will result when the conditions are present.

Also, keep in mind that piti-sukha does not have gush like a broken fire hydrant for it to concentrate the mind. Looking for things like that are liable to increase unwholesome states of mind and we're trying to avoid precisely that.
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Re: Can mudita (as part of 7sb and brahma vihara) and pīti (rapture as a jhāna factor) include crying tears of joy?

Post by frank k »

Hi, glad to see you on here and thanks for responding. For future reference, do a quoted reply instead of just adding a reply to bottom of the thread as you did, otherwise I don't get notification that the thread, even though I created the thread, got new responses. I only happened to see this msg. by chance (DW has a haphazard way of showing recent msgs unless you exhausitively descend each tree, which no one is going to do).

I don't have doubts as to how 4bv (brhamavirhara) and jhana works according to EBT. They can be done simultaneously. Early Ab (abhidhamma) such as Vimt. as far as I can tell aslo has them done concurrently, but late Ab and Vism. does things completely differenetly.

But what I'm really asking, is just as I titled the thread. Does Ab have something to say about piti and pamjoja including tears of joy. I believe Ab has something to say about arahants not able to laugh, or something like not being able to smile and show teeth. Or something like that, so I figure they'd have something to say about tears of joy.

pitithefool wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:08 pm Ha, I saw your post on reddit!

Meditating on mudita can produce piti, but also keep in mind so can meditating on the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha and any particularly inspiring theme. Mudita in particular can produce tears of joy.

My real interest is why are you asking this question> Are you trying to figure out if brahmavihara practice can be considered jhana?

If so, you'll never reach an end to people who agree or disagree. I've heard compelling arguments for both but I do lean on the side of considering brahmavihara practice jhana. If you read jhana to mean something like it does in the VSM, it's likely you'll consider it to be a practice only in line with access concentration. Either way though, it's can and will lead to ceto-vimutti and should be practiced. It's often included in suttas directly before the description of jhana as a means of purifying the mind.

The important thing to consider with jhana is that it is both a method and a result of abandoning sensuality and unwholesome states of mind. Practicing formal brahmaviharas is very much conducive to jhana but so are things like moderation in eating, dedication to wakefulness, practicing right speech and practicing 5 or 8 precepts. Jhana will result when the conditions are present.

Also, keep in mind that piti-sukha does not have gush like a broken fire hydrant for it to concentrate the mind. Looking for things like that are liable to increase unwholesome states of mind and we're trying to avoid precisely that.
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Re: Can mudita (as part of 7sb and brahma vihara) and pīti (rapture as a jhāna factor) include crying tears of joy?

Post by pitithefool »

frank k wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:04 pm
But what I'm really asking, is just as I titled the thread. Does Ab have something to say about piti and pamjoja including tears of joy. I believe Ab has something to say about arahants not able to laugh, or something like not being able to smile and show teeth. Or something like that, so I figure they'd have something to say about tears of joy.
It might sound like I'm trying to avoid your question but I'm not, and I mean this with all sincerity:

The biggest cause of failure in problem solving is not being able to discern what is relevant information and what is not, and that is directly due to not representing the problem fully.

Why are you asking this question?
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Re: Can mudita (as part of 7sb and brahma vihara) and pīti (rapture as a jhāna factor) include crying tears of joy?

Post by cappuccino »

frank k wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:04 pm about arahants not able to laugh, or something like not being able to smile and show teeth. Or something like that
merely that often having a smile showing teeth is infantile.
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