The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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Ceisiwr
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The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by Ceisiwr »

This is quite good, for those who are interested:

“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
thomaslaw
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by thomaslaw »

Thanks for posting the Pali Abhidhamma talk by Ven. Bodhi.

I have noticed that Ven. Bodhi in the beginning mentions the connection between mātṛkā in the Samyutta suttas (i.e. the major portion of SN/SA) and Abhidhamma collections. It seems Ven. Bodhi agrees the historical importance of SN/SA and of its major portion suggested by Ven. Yin Shun, and supported by Choong Mun-keat in his works.

:reading: :buddha1:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by Ceisiwr »

thomaslaw wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:45 am Thanks for posting the Pali Abhidhamma talk by Ven. Bodhi.

I have noticed that Ven. Bodhi in the beginning mentions the connection between mātṛkā in the Samyutta suttas (i.e. the major portion of SN/SA) and Abhidhamma collections. It seems Ven. Bodhi agrees the historical importance of SN/SA and of its major portion suggested by Ven. Yin Shun, and supported by Choong Mun-keat in his works.

:reading: :buddha1:
Indeed the SN/SA is important, but I’m unsure if Venerable Bodhi subscribes to the MN & DN as being later constructs as Yin Shun did, although he did claim once that the AN was more open to later suttas. If he did think the SN/SA was fundamental and first, which is questionable, it would be interesting since it would open up the idea that the Abhidhamma can be found within even just 1 Nikaya as being “authentic”.

Out of interest, do you subscribe to the Abhidhamma?
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by thomaslaw »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:03 am
Indeed the SN/SA is important, but I’m unsure if Venerable Bodhi subscribes to the MN & DN as being later constructs as Yin Shun did, although he did claim once that the AN was more open to later suttas. If he did think the SN/SA was fundamental and first, which is questionable, it would be interesting since it would open up the idea that the Abhidhamma can be found within even just 1 Nikaya as being “authentic”.

Out of interest, do you subscribe to the Abhidhamma?
I think Ven. Bodhi considers the SN/SA was the fundamental and first/early teachings, as matrix, for the development of early Pali Abhidhamma. He mentions and refers to, in the talk, the Pali Vibhanga, because its subject items (such as the aggregates) correspond closely to the major portion of SN/SA.

No, I do not subscribe to the Abhidhamma.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by Ceisiwr »

thomaslaw wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:04 am
...
That is a world away from claiming the SN/SA is fundamentally first and the rest later, at the 2nd council. He does say that the AN may contain later suttas. Still, I’m not aware of where he acknowledges Yin Shun’s theories.
No, I do not subscribe to the Abhidhamma.
How queer. Another Abhidharma perhaps? It obviously can’t be sutta/agama only, since suttas/Agamas need explaining.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:25 am It obviously can’t be sutta/agama only, since suttas/Agamas need explaining.
Curious comment, directly contradicted by the Buddha himself.
Vammikasutta wrote:“Bhikkhus, the Dhamma well proclaimed by me thus is clear, open, evident, and free of patchwork.”
It's fine to be a fan of the Abhidhamma, but when that fanhood leads to you directly contradicting the Buddha's words it might be worth reflecting on whether you're taking it too far.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

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retrofuturist wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:33 am [quote=retrofuturist post_id=626352 time=1622957613
Curious comment, directly contradicted by the Buddha himself.
As this is the Abhidhamma sub-section the Abhidhamma is taken as authoritative, no? Still, I’m open to some debate here.
It's fine to be a fan of the Abhidhamma, but when that fanhood leads to you directly contradicting the Buddha's words it might be worth reflecting on whether you're taking it too far.
Please point to this contradiction? The more I study it and the Abhidhammas of the other schools (most if not all had one btw, which should tell you something), the more apparent it is that the Theravadin one perfectly lines up with the Suttas and what the Blessed one taught. Could you point to say 3 contradictions?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

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retrofuturist wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:33 am ...
Real news.
And tradition has it that those bhikkhus only who know Abhidhamma are true preachers of the Dhamma; the rest, though they speak on the Dhamma, are not preachers thereof. And why? They, in speaking on the Dhamma, confuse the different kinds of Kamma and of its results, the distinction between mind and matter, and the different kinds of states. The students of Abhidhamma do not thus get confused; hence a bhikkhu who knows Abhidhamma, whether he preaches the Dhamma or not, will be able to answer questions whenever asked. He alone, therefore, is a true preacher of the Dhamma.
The Expositor (Atthasālinī).
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by thomaslaw »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:42 am
retrofuturist wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:33 am [quote=retrofuturist post_id=626352 time=1622957613
Curious comment, directly contradicted by the Buddha himself.
As this is the Abhidhamma sub-section the Abhidhamma is taken as authoritative, no? Still, I’m open to some debate here.
It's fine to be a fan of the Abhidhamma, but when that fanhood leads to you directly contradicting the Buddha's words it might be worth reflecting on whether you're taking it too far.
Please point to this contradiction? The more I study it and the Abhidhammas of the other schools (most if not all had one btw, which should tell you something), the more apparent it is that the Theravadin one perfectly lines up with the Suttas and what the Blessed one taught. Could you point to say 3 contradictions?
Bhikkhu Bodhi in the talk says he does not like the idea, paramattha "ultimate reality", indicated in the Abhidhamma. About the term, see also his book p. 25.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by Ceisiwr »

The likes of Sujato and the EBT/Suttavadins seem to think the Blessed One made teachings up on the spot, or merely taught conventions. I see no evidence for this heresy.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by Ceisiwr »

thomaslaw wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:56 am
Bhikkhu Bodhi in the talk says he does not like the idea, paramattha "ultimate reality", indicated in the Abhidhamma. About the term, see also his book p. 25.
Does he explain why? All it means is what can be really be known via direct experience, beyond the concepts, and so is true knowledge. It’s merely empiricism and a dash of logic. One of the admirable things about the Abhidhamma, the Theravadin one, is its systematic attempt to erase all notions of both atta and substance metaphysics in even the smallest moment of experience.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
thomaslaw
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by thomaslaw »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:58 am
thomaslaw wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:56 am
Bhikkhu Bodhi in the talk says he does not like the idea, paramattha "ultimate reality", indicated in the Abhidhamma. About the term, see also his book p. 25.
Does he explain why? All it means is what can be really be known via direct experience, beyond the concepts, and so is true knowledge. It’s merely empiricism and a dash of logic. One of the admirable things about the Abhidhamma, the Theravadin one, is its systematic attempt to erase all notions of both atta and substance metaphysics.
Because the Buddha in the suttas does not teach that paramattha idea.
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by thomaslaw »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:25 am
thomaslaw wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:04 am
...
That is a world away from claiming the SN/SA is fundamentally first and the rest later, at the 2nd council. He does say that the AN may contain later suttas. Still, I’m not aware of where he acknowledges Yin Shun’s theories.
He does say the early Abhidhamma was based on the major part of SN/SA.
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by Ceisiwr »

thomaslaw wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:02 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:58 am
thomaslaw wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:56 am
Bhikkhu Bodhi in the talk says he does not like the idea, paramattha "ultimate reality", indicated in the Abhidhamma. About the term, see also his book p. 25.
Does he explain why? All it means is what can be really be known via direct experience, beyond the concepts, and so is true knowledge. It’s merely empiricism and a dash of logic. One of the admirable things about the Abhidhamma, the Theravadin one, is its systematic attempt to erase all notions of both atta and substance metaphysics.
Because the Buddha in the suttas does not teach that paramattha idea.
But he does. Vedana etc are real, whilst concepts such as “self” are not.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by Ceisiwr »

thomaslaw wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:10 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:25 am
thomaslaw wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:04 am
...
That is a world away from claiming the SN/SA is fundamentally first and the rest later, at the 2nd council. He does say that the AN may contain later suttas. Still, I’m not aware of where he acknowledges Yin Shun’s theories.
He does say the early Abhidhamma was based on the major part of SN/SA.
Of course it was. That doesn’t mean the other Nikayas are late.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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