The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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retrofuturist
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
robertk wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:01 am Do a rabbit's horns also arise and cease?
Mind-consciousness is a dhamma (phenomena) which arises and passes away.
SN 35.93 wrote:"In dependence on the mind & ideas there arises mind-consciousness. The mind is inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise. Ideas are inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise. Thus this pair is both wavering & fluctuating — inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise.
In such a way, concepts arise (when they are thought of) and pass away (when they are not).
SN 47.42 wrote:With the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhammas. With the cessation of attentiveness there is the cessation of dhammas
Does the world view of Abhidhammikas conform to these words of the Blessed One?

:popcorn:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by robertk »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:08 am
In such a way, concepts arise (when they are thought of) and pass away (when they are not).
SN 47.42 wrote:With the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhammas. With the cessation of attentiveness there is the cessation of dhammas
Does the world view of Abhidhammikas conform to these words of the Blessed One?

:popcorn:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"With the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhammas"
Manisikarasamudaya dhammanam samudayo.
The dhamma(s) here is referring to actual realities, which Bodhi translates as phenomena.
the Commentary says this:

. Spk: The phenomena
of the enlightenment factors originate through
careful attention; the phenomena of the hindrances
through careless attention.


It is not referring to such non-existent imaginations like self or a rabbit's horns. How can something that doesn't exist, ever, arise and cease.
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Robert,
robertk wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:35 am It is not referring to such non-existent imaginations like self or a rabbit's horns. How can something that doesn't exist, ever, arise and cease.
This was explained in the Sutta you cut out of your reply. I'm sorry if that poses problems, but it is what it is.
SN 35.93 wrote:"In dependence on the mind & ideas there arises mind-consciousness. The mind is inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise. Ideas are inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise. Thus this pair is both wavering & fluctuating — inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise.
Further, per the Satipatthana Sutta...
Thus he lives contemplating ideas in ideas internally, or he lives contemplating ideas in ideas externally, or he lives contemplating ideas in ideas internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination factors in ideas, or he lives contemplating dissolution factors in ideas, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution factors in ideas. Or his mindfulness is established with the thought, "There are ideas," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Thus also, monks, a monk lives contemplating ideas in the ideas of the five hindrances.
:popcorn:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by Pondera »

robertk wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:35 am
retrofuturist wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:08 am
In such a way, concepts arise (when they are thought of) and pass away (when they are not).
SN 47.42 wrote:With the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhammas. With the cessation of attentiveness there is the cessation of dhammas
Does the world view of Abhidhammikas conform to these words of the Blessed One?

:popcorn:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"With the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhammas"
Manisikarasamudaya dhammanam samudayo.
The dhamma(s) here is referring to actual realities, which Bodhi translates as phenomena.
the Commentary says this:

. Spk: The phenomena
of the enlightenment factors originate through
careful attention; the phenomena of the hindrances
through careless attention.


It is not referring to such non-existent imaginations like self or a rabbit's horns. How can something that doesn't exist, ever, arise and cease.
To answer your question; careless attention.

It is by not realizing that the skhandas are subject to dukkha and anicca that self-view arises.

In the case of certain devas (for example) an aggregate of fine material form, along with feelings, perceptions, impulses, and consciousness may arise and persist for a very, very long time.

Because there is so much pleasure in heaven it is hard to see the dukkha and the anicca of one’s existence there.

For that reason, self view arises and persists for a very long time. And, furthermore, the Buddha has said that we humans are more fortunate than the devas because we can see the dukkha and annica of the skhandas.

Self view is no less a “real” fabrication than the skhandas them selves.

It is not by watching arising, persisting, and disintegrating that one comes upon annica, dukkha and therefore anatta.

It is by seeing the inherent dukkha anicca and anatta in all skhandas that we develop “knowledge and vision of things as they really are”; disenchantment; dispassion; release; and knowledge and vision of release.

You can watch phenomenon rise and fall all day - it will not make a lick of difference to your practice.

No wonder, so many people sit cross wise detecting thoughts and feelings coming and going without ever making progress. Their sessions inevitably end when the pain in their joints no longer seems to “cease” (and, if you catch my drift, only seems to “persist”).

Point being - the development of samadhi is for the purpose of knowing and seeing things as they really are. That equates to direct intuition of the three marks wherever form, feeling, perception, impulse, or consciousness are present in the jhana.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by DooDoot »

thomaslaw wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:09 am
The sutta SN 14.13 indicates three kinds of dhaatu, which arises the 16. uppatti (rebirth).
uppatti = arising
upapatti = 'rebirth'
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by DooDoot »

robertk wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:35 am "With the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhammas"
Manisikarasamudaya dhammanam samudayo.
The dhamma(s) here is referring to actual realities, which Bodhi translates as phenomena.
the Commentary says this:

. Spk: The phenomena
of the enlightenment factors originate through
careful attention; the phenomena of the hindrances
through careless attention.
the Commentary contradicts Bhikkhu Bodhi

the Commentary correctly says with the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhamma principles

dhamma principles is not "phenomena". "Phenomena" include sounds, rocks, planets, etc

Bhikkhu Bodhi appears to have translated it as solipsism
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:59 am “Atta” is not real, since it has no sabhāva.
While possibly not explicitly stated in the framework of Abhidhamma, the sabhava of atta is delusion
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:59 amAn atta does not rise nor cease, since it doesn’t exist nor not exist.
Compared to the suttas, they appear to say "atta" is a "samanupassati", which is a mental formation:
They regard form as self.
rūpaṁ attato samanupassati.

But that regarding is just a conditioned phenomenon.
Yā kho pana sā, bhikkhave, samanupassanā saṅkhāro so.

And what’s the source, origin, birthplace, and inception of that conditioned phenomenon?
So pana saṅkhāro kiṁnidāno kiṁsamudayo kiṁjātiko kiṁpabhavo?

When an uneducated ordinary person is struck by feelings born of contact with ignorance, craving arises.
Avijjāsamphassajena, bhikkhave, vedayitena phuṭṭhassa assutavato puthujjanassa uppannā taṇhā;

That conditioned phenomenon is born from that.
tatojo so saṅkhāro.

So that conditioned phenomenon is impermanent, conditioned, and dependently originated.
Iti kho, bhikkhave, sopi saṅkhāro anicco saṅkhato paṭiccasamuppanno.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.81/en/sujato
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by thomaslaw »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:08 am
thomaslaw wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:09 am
The sutta SN 14.13 indicates three kinds of dhaatu, which arises the 16. uppatti (rebirth).
uppatti = arising
upapatti = 'rebirth'
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/uppatti

"uppatti : (f.) rebirth; coming forth; origin."
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by robertk »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:14 am
robertk wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:35 am "With the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhammas"
Manisikarasamudaya dhammanam samudayo.
The dhamma(s) here is referring to actual realities, which Bodhi translates as phenomena.
the Commentary says this:

. Spk: The phenomena
of the enlightenment factors originate through
careful attention; the phenomena of the hindrances
through careless attention.
the Commentary contradicts Bhikkhu Bodhi

the Commentary correctly says with the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhamma principles

dhamma principles is not "phenomena". "Phenomena" include sounds, rocks, planets, etc

Bhikkhu Bodhi appears to have translated it as solipsism
I am not sure what you are saying. Phenomena seems fine as a translation to me, as would realities.

There is a huge difference between "sounds, rocks.planets".
Sounds are real, there arise and cease instantly.
But things like rocks are like shadows of the ultimate realities - the rupas.

The Abhidhammattha Vibhavani (Book 8) distinguishes between six kinds of
concepts that are names, nama-pannatti (see Visuddhimagga VIII, note 11).
1. Vijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known what is real, for example
the words rupa, nama, vedana (feeling), or sanna (perception) 10
.
2. Avijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known what is not real, such as
the words Thai or foreigner. These concepts do not represent absolute realities, citta
and cetasika which are nama, and rupa. Thai or foreigner are not real in the absolute
sense, they are conventional realities, sammutti dhammas. Could akusala
citta11 (unwholesome consciousness) be Thai or foreign? Akusala citta is a paramattha
dhamma (a reality), it is a dhamma which has its own characteristic, it is not Thai or
foreign.
3. Vijjamanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of the non-existent based on the
existent. There is the expression "the person with the six abhinnas."12 The six
abhinnas are real but person is not real. Thus this concept stands for what is real and
for what is not real.
4. Avijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of the existent based on the nonexistent. There is the expression "woman's voice". The sound is real, but the woman
is not real.
5. Vijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of what is real based on what is
real. There is the term cakkhu-vinnana (eye-consciousness). Cakkhu (eye) is a reality,
namely the cakkhu-pasada-rupa (eyesense, a reality sensitive to colour or visible
object), and vinnana (consciousness) is also a reality, namely the reality which
experiences.
6. Avija amanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of what is not real based on
what is not real. There is the expression "the kings son". Both king and son are not
real, they are sammutti dhammas, conventional realities
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by Ceisiwr »

To say that atta is born, exists for a time and then ceases is annihilationism.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:22 am [Compared to the suttas, they appear to say "atta" is a "samanupassati", which is a mental formation:
That seems to be talking about regarding, rather than the concept itself.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by DooDoot »

robertk wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:41 am Phenomena seems fine as a translation to me...
But it is not fine.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by DooDoot »

thomaslaw wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:31 am https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/uppatti

"uppatti : (f.) rebirth; coming forth; origin."
I cannot find "uppatti" (noun) in any sutta. However, the verb "uppajjati" is found in many suttas. It means "arisen", as follows:
“Mendicants, an element gives rise to a perception, a view, and a thought.”
“Dhātuṁ, bhikkhave, paṭicca uppajjati saññā, uppajjati diṭṭhi, uppajjati vitakko”ti.

SN 14.13
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:33 am [Self view is no less a “real” fabrication than the skhandas them selves.
The dhammas are what truly exist. Concepts like the self or “a house” or “a dog” do not.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: The Theravada Abhidhamma with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:46 am
Pondera wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:33 am [Self view is no less a “real” fabrication than the skhandas them selves.
The dhammas are what truly exist. Concepts like the self or “a house” or “a dog” do not.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
All dhammas exist conditionally - that includes the reality pertaining to the label “dog” “house” and “self”.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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