Are there any cittas not accompanied by cittajarupa? (Regarding a 'human being')

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Are there any cittas not accompanied by cittajarupa? (Regarding a 'human being')

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Regarding a 'human being', are there any cittas not accompanied by cittajarupa? (inclusive of supramundane cittas)


Thanks 🙏🏻 🙏🏻🙏🏻
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
SarathW
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Re: Are there any cittas not accompanied by cittajarupa? (Regarding a 'human being')

Post by SarathW »

Thus, the cetasika and kammaja-rupa are the nama-rupas born of rebirth consciousness. The kammaja-rupas are renewed at every thought-moment as are the utuja-rupas due to heat. From the arising of the first bhavanga-citta there also occur cittaja-rupa (consciousness-based) rupas at the moment of the arising of citta. But, cittas which make us barely aware of seeing, etc., cannot cause rupa. So cittaja-rupas do not arise at the moment of the arising of the bare cittas. Thus, with the arising of the rebirth citta, there develop in due course all other kinds of citta, that is, cetasikas, e.g., feeling, etc., as well as all kinds of rupa, to wit, kammaja, utuja and cittaja-rupas. After a week, the kalala becomes turbid froth (abbuda) which turns into a lump of flesh after a week. This hardens into //ghana// in another week and in the fifth week there develops //pasakha// with four knobs for hands and legs and one big knob for head.
https://www.budsas.org/ebud/mahasi-pati ... cca-02.htm
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Are there any cittas not accompanied by cittajarupa? (Regarding a 'human being')

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

SarathW wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 11:14 pm
... But, cittas which make us barely aware of seeing, etc., cannot cause rupa. So cittaja-rupas do not arise at the moment of the arising of the bare cittas. ...
https://www.budsas.org/ebud/mahasi-pati ... cca-02.htm

:thanks:

That's very interesting. I like the point very much.


Apart from bare cittas, how about the rest of the cittas?
In other words, with the exception of bare cittas, are all the rest of the cittas always accompanied by cittaja-rupas?


:heart:
Last edited by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta on Sun May 30, 2021 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
SarathW
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Re: Are there any cittas not accompanied by cittajarupa? (Regarding a 'human being')

Post by SarathW »

I believe so.
If you are angry, it will produce sweat, blood gets heated, your heart rate increase etc.
For attachment, it produces saliva, tears, etc.
For ignorance, I think there is no production of any Cittajarupa.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Are there any cittas not accompanied by cittajarupa? (Regarding a 'human being')

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

SarathW wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:43 am I believe so.
If you are angry, it will produce sweat, blood gets heated, your heart rate increase etc.
For attachment, it produces saliva, tears, etc.
For ignorance, I think there is no production of any Cittajarupa.



I think I understand your point.

I don't know Abhidhamma to a functional level.

However, as of now, I am not able to "feel" sweat as a Cittajarupa. I think it's more of a by-product of Cittajarupas.


:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Are there any cittas not accompanied by cittajarupa? (Regarding a 'human being')

Post by SarathW »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:13 am
SarathW wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:43 am I believe so.
If you are angry, it will produce sweat, blood gets heated, your heart rate increase etc.
For attachment, it produces saliva, tears, etc.
For ignorance, I think there is no production of any Cittajarupa.

I do not have much Abhidhamma knowledge either.
I think Oja is a product of Cittaja rupa.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Are there any cittas not accompanied by cittajarupa? (Regarding a 'human being')

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

I think I just found the answer of some sort.

https://www.bdcu.org.au/bddronline/bddr ... hi076.html
Dr. Mehm Tin Mon writes in "The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma" (pp. 238 - 240):
  • (2) Material Phenomena arising from Citta

    The cittas that produce rupa number 75, excluding the 10 dvi-panca-vinnana cittas and 4 arupavacara-vipaka cittas. All patisandhi-cittas and the death-consciousness of arahats also do not produce rupa.

    Starting from the first bhavanga-citta of the life-continuum till death. The 75 cittas mentioned above produce cittaja-rupa at every arising instant of the respective cittas. The rupa produced by citta is known as cittaja-rupa.

    Of the 75 cittas, the 26 appana-javana cittas not only produce cittaja-rupa but also support the four bodily postures -viz., standing, sitting, lying and walking.

    The 32 cittas comprising mano-dvaravajjana, 29 kamavacara javanas and 2 abhinnas (supernormal knowledges) produce cittaja-rupa, support the bodily postures and also produce two viññati-rupas for bodily postures and vocal actions.

    Of the 32 cittas mentioned above, the 13 somanassa javanas also produce smiles and laughters whereas the 2 domanassa javanas, i.e., the 2 dosa-mula cittas, produce moaning and weeping.

    Hasituppada and 4 somanassa-maha-kiriya cittas produce smiles in Buddhas and arahats.

    Two lobhamula-ditthigata-vipayutta-somanassa cittas and 4 somanassa-maha-kusala cittas produce smiles and laughters in sekha-persons -i.e., sotapanna, sakadagamis and anagamis.

    Four lobhamula-somanassa cittas and 4 somanassa-maha-kusala cittas produce smiles and laughters in puthujjanas (worldlings).

    Three mano-dhatus, 11 tadalambanas and 5 rupavacara vipaka cittas (totalling 19) produce only ordinary cittaja-rupa.





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Regarding cittas that don't produce cittaja-rupa:

dvi-pañca-viññāṇa :
4 arupavacara vipakacittas
  • Since there are four stages of arupa-jhana, there are four types of arupavacara kusala cittas. They produce vipaka in the form of rebirth in the happy planes of existence which are the arupa-brahma planes. The four types of arupavacara kusala cittas produce four types of arupavacara vipakacittas. Arupavacara vipakacitta can only perform the functions of patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti.
    There are four types of arupavacara kiriyacittas which are the cittas of the arahats who attain arupa-jhana. Thus, there are twelve arupavacara cittas in all. Summarizing them, they are:
    4 arupavacara kusalacittas 
4 arupavacara vipakacittas 
4 arupavacara kiriyacitta
    https://www.saigon.com/anson/ebud/nina- ... bhi-22.htm
    arupavacara citta
    (consciousness mostly experienced in arupa-loka)


    There are 12 arupavacara citta which are equally divided into three groups of kusala, vipaka and kiriya citta.

    1.arupavacara kusala citta = arupa-jhana moral consciousness (4)
    2.arupavacara vipaka citta = arupa-jhana resultant consciousness (4)
    3.arupavacara kiriya citta = arupa-jhana functional consciousness (4)


    The four arupavacara kusala citta may be acquired by persons who are not yet arahats whereas the four arupavacara kiriya citta can arise only in arahats. These two types of arupavacara citta are experienced in the sense sphere as well as in the immaterial sphere.

    The four arupavacara vipaka citta are experienced in the immaterial-sphere only. They are the kamma-resultants of arupavacara kusala citta. A person who acquires arupa-jhana and maintains it till his or her death will be reborn in the immaterial sphere.
    https://www.bdcu.org.au/bddronline/bddr ... hi012.html
patisandhi-cittas
  • Summarizing the nineteen types of patisandhi-citta, they are :
    1. 1 akusala vipaka santirana-citta (ahetuka, result of akusala kamma)
    2. 1 kusala vipaka santirana-citta (ahetuka, result of kamavacara kusala kamma)
    3. 8 maha-vipakacittas (sahetuka, results of kamavacara kusala kamma)
    4. 5 rupavacara vipakacittas (sahetuka, results of rupa-jhanacittas)
    5. 4 arupavacara vipakacittas (sahetuka, results of arupa-jhanacittas)
    https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... c2716.html

death-consciousness of arahats
  • Apart from this arahatta cuti cittas, all other 89 cittas whether they are cuti or not, there always is a citta that arises immediately after passing away of foregoing citta. The leaving of the king when he dies means the crown prince automatically the king. Like this simile, leaving of foregoing citta ( all 89 cittas except when it is cuti citta of arahats ) or passing away of foregoing citta conditions the arising of incoming next citta.

    Foregoing citta has its cetasikas. So both citta and cetasikas when they pass away condition the next arising citta and its cetasikas. This condition is called proximity condition or anantara paccaya. Anantara is made up of ana and antara. Ana means no not nothing. Antara means interval gap space. So anantara means no interval or it means proximate.
    https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... c1834.html
:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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